Page 12 of 13 FirstFirst ... 210111213 LastLast
Results 111 to 120 of 128

Thread: Franken sworn in as Minnesota senator

  1. #111
    Upper West Side Jacobin
    new coup for you's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Philly, "The City that shoves you back!"
    Last Seen
    07-01-10 @ 01:13 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    10,643

    Re: Franken sworn in as Minnesota senator

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Then we are debating the same thing as an overreaching federal government is unconstitutional.

    No, it doesn't. Amendment nine states that all powers not granted to the federal government are held by the people, that breaks down to states and local governments, the tenth amendment prohibits government from exercising those powers not granted to it. The powers granted to the federal are of a very small scope, they have the power to raise taxes, print money, raise a defense, and regulate interstate commerce(not to be construed as products sold in two or more states, it applies to commerce arguments between the states such as unfair taxes, tariffs, etc.).

    And this is avoiding the elephant in the room...all the Evangelical Christian endorsed invasive social programs that Republicans love so much.
    Who said Republicans like the Evangelicals, they get used by the GOP like the Democrats use other minorities such as blacks, gays, hippies, jews, hispanics, the poor, etc...[/QUOTE]

    You want to debate the Constitution, which would mean we could debate the Constitutionality of various programs, however, that's not what this debate is about. It's about how big you want the government to be. And the reality is, is whether or not the government spends 500 billion dollars on social welfare programs and employs 50,000 federal workers to carry them out, or whether i spends 500 billion dollars on defense programs and employs 50,000 soldiers it's still spending 500 billion dollars and employing 50,000 people.

    The difference is that you prefer one instance over the other, not that they're genuinely different in terms of government size.
    And why does your tone suggest that you do not care about children?

  2. #112
    Banned G.I. Joe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Last Seen
    08-09-09 @ 04:23 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    247

    Re: Franken sworn in as Minnesota senator

    Quote Originally Posted by new coup for you View Post
    You didn't explain anything, you just said "no...it doesn't count...because I like it."

    So if we stopped spending money on stuff you don't like, and spent more money on stuff you DO like, we'd have a smaller government.

    Wait...

    What if we stopped spending money on stuff YOU like and spent more money on stuff I like...holy crap, we'd have smaller government!
    Here is the problem we keep encountering. You believe that the size of government is equal to the amount spent on it. This isn't true. If you spend a billion dollars on the military, it does not grow the size of government in the way that spending a billion dollars on, say, welfare does.

    The main reason is, I gauge the size of government on how much it is allowed to intrude into our lives. When the government is paying for someone's groceries, it gives them a certain amount of power over that person. Also, it is OUR money that is footing the bill. So basically people who are standing on their own two feet are being forced to pay for those that aren't, which means the government is intruding into OUR lives as well.

    I think the anatomy of a person would be a good analogy (as flaky as that sounds). Think of it this way. You can have a guy who weighs 250lbs, but has 30% body fat. On the other hand, you can have another guy who weighs the exact same thing, but at only 8% body fat, the difference being the man whose weight is attributed to muscle, rather than useless, disgusting fat, is going to be much more efficient in achieving his tasks.
    Last edited by G.I. Joe; 07-08-09 at 12:33 PM.

  3. #113
    Sage
    apdst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bagdad, La.
    Last Seen
    Today @ 10:38 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    76,520

    Re: Franken sworn in as Minnesota senator

    Quote Originally Posted by new coup for you View Post
    And this is avoiding the elephant in the room...all the Evangelical Christian endorsed invasive social programs that Republicans love so much.
    And, which programs are those, exactly?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  4. #114
    Passionate
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Last Seen
    03-07-11 @ 04:35 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    15,675

    Re: Franken sworn in as Minnesota senator

    Quote Originally Posted by G.I. Joe View Post
    Ok, Mr. Hall Monitor(Another name, OOPS!!!) Did you actually read the post I was responding to? It wasn't exactly respectful and didn't exactly maintain a high level of discourse. I didn't call him that merely because I hate liberals. I actually engage in fruitful debate with liberals all the time. If you'll actually pay attention, he was the one who started with the cursing. I merely returned the favor. I have a feeling that if the situation were turned around, and I were a liberal, that post would have never been reported. Whatever, though. Have a nice day.
    When I see jallman call people names, I don't report him because I like him.

    Seriously, I saw you using derogatory names for liberals and then saw you call someone a dumbass. That is not appropriate. Several pages into this thread, I saw you writing much more thoughtfully, so I liked that. I can't take someone seriously when they call liberals nasty names. It's incredibly childish.

    Lastly, as I am sure your momma told you, two wrongs don't make a right. I can't stand the excuse of, "He called me a name first." That's a bogus reason to follow suit.

  5. #115
    Klattu Verata Nicto
    LaMidRighter's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Louisiana
    Last Seen
    07-21-17 @ 02:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    30,534

    Re: Franken sworn in as Minnesota senator

    Quote Originally Posted by new coup for you View Post

    You want to debate the Constitution, which would mean we could debate the Constitutionality of various programs, however, that's not what this debate is about. It's about how big you want the government to be. And the reality is, is whether or not the government spends 500 billion dollars on social welfare programs and employs 50,000 federal workers to carry them out, or whether i spends 500 billion dollars on defense programs and employs 50,000 soldiers it's still spending 500 billion dollars and employing 50,000 people.

    The difference is that you prefer one instance over the other, not that they're genuinely different in terms of government size.
    I have bolded the crux of the argument, the difference isn't what I prefer, as I wish we did not have to spend any taxpayer money as a country, but that isn't the reality, the reality is that constitutional law mandates defense and prohibits social spending, it is in the constitution itself, the federalist papers, and the anti-federalist papers, as well as other writings of the founding fathers, they were explicitly clear that defense is a necessary evil and niche issues are best left to the states, going as far as to mandate those issues to the states and local.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  6. #116
    Upper West Side Jacobin
    new coup for you's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Philly, "The City that shoves you back!"
    Last Seen
    07-01-10 @ 01:13 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    10,643

    Re: Franken sworn in as Minnesota senator

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    I have bolded the crux of the argument, the difference isn't what I prefer, as I wish we did not have to spend any taxpayer money as a country, but that isn't the reality, the reality is that constitutional law mandates defense and prohibits social spending, it is in the constitution itself, the federalist papers, and the anti-federalist papers, as well as other writings of the founding fathers, they were explicitly clear that defense is a necessary evil and niche issues are best left to the states, going as far as to mandate those issues to the states and local.
    Again, that's a debate about constitutionality not about government size.

    500 billion dollars is 500 billion dollars and 50,000 people is 50,000 people. It doesn't matter what it's spent on or what those people are doing.
    Last edited by new coup for you; 07-08-09 at 01:44 PM.
    And why does your tone suggest that you do not care about children?

  7. #117
    Upper West Side Jacobin
    new coup for you's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Philly, "The City that shoves you back!"
    Last Seen
    07-01-10 @ 01:13 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    10,643

    Re: Franken sworn in as Minnesota senator

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    And, which programs are those, exactly?
    Abstinence only education, forcing states to accept a federal drinking age, sexual morality law.
    And why does your tone suggest that you do not care about children?

  8. #118
    Upper West Side Jacobin
    new coup for you's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Philly, "The City that shoves you back!"
    Last Seen
    07-01-10 @ 01:13 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    10,643

    Re: Franken sworn in as Minnesota senator

    Quote Originally Posted by G.I. Joe View Post
    Here is the problem we keep encountering. You believe that the size of government is equal to the amount spent on it. This isn't true. If you spend a billion dollars on the military, it does not grow the size of government in the way that spending a billion dollars on, say, welfare does.

    The main reason is, I gauge the size of government on how much it is allowed to intrude into our lives. When the government is paying for someone's groceries, it gives them a certain amount of power over that person. Also, it is OUR money that is footing the bill. So basically people who are standing on their own two feet are being forced to pay for those that aren't, which means the government is intruding into OUR lives as well.

    I think the anatomy of a person would be a good analogy (as flaky as that sounds). Think of it this way. You can have a guy who weighs 250lbs, but has 30% body fat. On the other hand, you can have another guy who weighs the exact same thing, but at only 8% body fat, the difference being the man whose weight is attributed to muscle, rather than useless, disgusting fat, is going to be much more efficient in achieving his tasks.
    Whereas as vast arms programs (requiring equally vast bureaucracies) giving the government the abillitlty to kill you doesn't invade your "personal sovereignty".

    If you asked the anti-federalists whether they were more concerned about a standing army or welfare programs, I'm pretty sure they'd say a standing army.
    And why does your tone suggest that you do not care about children?

  9. #119
    Klattu Verata Nicto
    LaMidRighter's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Louisiana
    Last Seen
    07-21-17 @ 02:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    30,534

    Re: Franken sworn in as Minnesota senator

    Quote Originally Posted by new coup for you View Post
    Again, that's a debate about constitutionality not about government size.
    What I'm getting at is that they are intertwined, I may not be making a clear argument, but the idea of the constitution was specifically to limit the size of government, as a small government is relatively powerless against the states, but strong enough to defend the union against outside forces, however a large, powerfull government can enact it's will whenever the mood strikes, especially with a unified tri-lateral power structure of single-party majority in the legislative, executive, and judicial, we have been at 3:3 and 2:3 for over two decades now and are seeing the rapid expansion of federal power because of this.
    My point overall is that big government leads less rights, and the constitution was set up to prevent the government from getting to......well......where it is at currently.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  10. #120
    Sage
    apdst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bagdad, La.
    Last Seen
    Today @ 10:38 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    76,520

    Re: Franken sworn in as Minnesota senator

    Quote Originally Posted by new coup for you View Post
    Abstinence only education, forcing states to accept a federal drinking age, sexual morality law.
    The drinking age is a Right wing deal? That passed back in the days of the 50 year Dem Congress.

    The other two aren't really invasive. Is this all you have? None of them are really, "social programs".

    How 'bout gun control? Now, there's an invasive social program. That one belongs to the Libbos.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

Page 12 of 13 FirstFirst ... 210111213 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •