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Robert McNamara, ex-defense secretary, dies

Re: McNamara dies

Scorpion89 said:
I can what would hyou like to know I bet Laila couldn't name the PM in 1960.
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You ever hear of puncuation? :shock:

I wonder how many had to read that more that twice to figure out what the hell you were trying to say.


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Re: McNamara dies

TOJ said:
You ever hear of puncuation? :shock:

I wonder how many had to read that more that twice to figure out what the hell you were trying to say.
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I know what you mean.
 
Re: McNamara dies

Laila said:
... as has Jerry Nielsen FitzGerald who was a south pole physican who when she discovered she had breast cancer treated a biopsy on herself
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I've heard of that gal. She was all over the news for that, as I recall.
 
Re: McNamara dies

Scorpion89 said:
Your Kidding right you have no idea who he is. This explains allot about some of your post then.
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While one may agree or disagree with the opinions stated in Laila's posted messages, I believe that the body of her work demonstrates that she is both an independent thinker and capable of expressing her positions on the issues.
 
Re: McNamara dies

donsutherland1 said:
While one may agree or disagree with the opinions stated in Laila's posted messages, I believe that the body of her work demonstrates that she is both an independent thinker and capable of expressing her positions on the issues.
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No she has many different time claim to have good knowledge of her home Country History then she should know who Sec.McNamara is and what his role was with the build up of the English Military during the mid 60s thru the early 70's.
 
Re: McNamara dies

He wasn't a villian, he was a f**king idiot... its because of politicians like him the military had to fight with one arm tied behind their backs... granted LBJ and Nixon didn't help a damn thing, but didn't make it any better.

The prob with these assh*les is the same as that asshat Rummy: when the people in uniform talk about fighting douchebags in suits need to STFU...
 
Re: McNamara dies

Sturmrabe said:
He wasn't a villian, he was a f**king idiot... its because of politicians like him the military had to fight with one arm tied behind their backs... granted LBJ and Nixon didn't help a damn thing, but didn't make it any better.

The prob with these assh*les is the same as that asshat Rummy: when the people in uniform talk about fighting douchebags in suits need to STFU...
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That's the one thing that the right and left can agree on. If it hadn't been for McNamara forcing our troops to fight with crappy tactics, we could have won Vietnam alot sooner and more decisively than we did.
 
Re: McNamara dies

apdst said:
That's the one thing that the right and left can agree on. If it hadn't been for McNamara forcing our troops to fight with crappy tactics, we could have won Vietnam alot sooner and more decisively than we did.
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We won Vietnam? :confused:
 
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

Moderator's Warning:
Link added to OP
 
Re: McNamara dies

Tucker Case said:
We won Vietnam? :confused:
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You bet we did. We destroyed the Viet Cong in 68 and fought the North Vietnamese Army to a stand still, forcing The North to go to the bargaining table and sign a treaty ending the war. They subsequently violated that treaty and slaughtered a million people while the world watched, but we forced them to sign a treaty just the same. The war being ended by The Treaty of Paris is the reason I say that we could have won a more decisive victory, had we used better tactics.

Vietnam speaks volumes as to the military prowess of the American fighting man. We put our troops into impossible terrain, fighting a completely unknown enemy, with junk tactics and ROE's and he still defeated the enemy. Vietnam has certainly be denied it's proper place in American history.
 
Re: McNamara dies

apdst said:
You bet we did. We destroyed the Viet Cong in 68 and fought the North Vietnamese Army to a stand still, forcing The North to go to the bargaining table and sign a treaty ending the war. They subsequently violated that treaty and slaughtered a million people while the world watched, but we forced them to sign a treaty just the same. The war being ended by The Treaty of Paris is the reason I say that we could have won a more decisive victory, had we used better tactics.

Vietnam speaks volumes as to the military prowess of the American fighting man. We put our troops into impossible terrain, fighting a completely unknown enemy, with junk tactics and ROE's and he still defeated the enemy. Vietnam has certainly be denied it's proper place in American history.
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Then why is Vietnam a communist country?
 
Re: McNamara dies

Tucker Case said:
Then why is Vietnam a communist country?
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Because we didn't end the war as we should have.

1) We didn't destroy the Communist forces.

And,

2) We didn't keep our word to support South Vietnam, should the North invade after US forces left the country.

The South was able to fight off the NVA and was doing a good job, until they literally ran out of gas and ammo. Our promise to make sure that didn't happen wasn't kept. I believe, from the research I've done, that the ARVN could have been successful against the NVA, had we conducted massive airlifts of weapons, ammo, food and fuel.

Instead, we did nothing, while The North took down South Vietnam, killing one million South Vietnamese civilians. Pol Pot was freed up to takeover Cambodia, killing a million+ and there were over 100 thousand Hmong tribesmen killed in Laos by the Communist forces there. Remember the whole, "Yellow Rain", thing in the late 70's? Yeah, that was the Pathet Lao Communists using mustard gas to wipe out the Hmong.

To this day, the Hmong are still being murdered by the Communists in Laos and Vietnam.

Laos, Vietnam Troops Slaughter Lao, Hmong: Over 6500 Face Death | Soldier of Fortune
 
Re: McNamara dies

apdst said:
Because we didn't end the war as we should have.

1) We didn't destroy the Communist forces.

And,

2) We didn't keep our word to support South Vietnam, should the North invade after US forces left the country.

The South was able to fight off the NVA and was doing a good job, until they literally ran out of gas and ammo. Our promise to make sure that didn't happen wasn't kept. I believe, from the research I've done, that the ARVN could have been successful against the NVA, had we conducted massive airlifts of weapons, ammo, food and fuel.

Instead, we did nothing, while The North took down South Vietnam, killing one million South Vietnamese civilians. Pol Pot was freed up to takeover Cambodia, killing a million+ and there were over 100 thousand Hmong tribesmen killed in Laos by the Communist forces there. Remember the whole, "Yellow Rain", thing in the late 70's? Yeah, that was the Pathet Lao Communists using mustard gas to wipe out the Hmong.

To this day, the Hmong are still being murdered by the Communists in Laos and Vietnam.

Laos, Vietnam Troops Slaughter Lao, Hmong: Over 6500 Face Death | Soldier of Fortune
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:confused: If our goal was not achieved, and the opponents goal was achieved, how could we have won?
 
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

Who was it that came up with the ink blot strategy again? If we had practiced that, treated it like the anti-guerilla operation it was instead of a conventional war, we might have won.
 
Re: McNamara dies

Tucker Case said:
:confused: If our goal was not achieved, and the opponents goal was achieved, how could we have won?
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We defeated the enemy on the battlefield. While our political goal was botched, because of the violation of a leagal and binding treaty and no one bothered to enforce that treaty, as promised; we did achieve our objective on the battlefield and that was to force the enemy into submission. It went wrong when we didn't force them into submission, enough. This is what happens when wars are fought on the political front instead of the battle front.

The South Vietnamese lost to The North, because we didn't give them the support we promised. US forces were never defeated by the Communists in Southeast Asia.
 
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

the makeout hobo said:
Who was it that came up with the ink blot strategy again? If we had practiced that, treated it like the anti-guerilla operation it was instead of a conventional war, we might have won.
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The Brits developed that strategy in Malaysia in the 50's. It's basically a hearts and minds strategy; the idea being that [you take one area and make life so good that they don't want to fight you anymore]

Bush adoted this strategy in Iraq, or wanted to. I don't know how much it was employed.

Bush adopts British colonial model for Iraq - Telegraph
 
Re: McNamara dies

apdst said:
We defeated the enemy on the battlefield. While our political goal was botched, because of the violation of a leagal and binding treaty and no one bothered to enforce that treaty, as promised; we did achieve our objective on the battlefield and that was to force the enemy into submission. It went wrong when we didn't force them into submission, enough. This is what happens when wars are fought on the political front instead of the battle front.

The South Vietnamese lost to The North, because we didn't give them the support we promised. US forces were never defeated by the Communists in Southeast Asia.
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this all is what people fail to realize about Vietnam, and similar situations. Guerrilla War is basically continuation of politics by other means. You don't win unless you win the political war. Victory on the battlefield is meaningless if it doesn't change the political or social climate. I mean, look at two guerrilla wars where the establishment won: Syria and Malaysia. In Malaysia, the British were able to reform the Malaysian system enough to basically remove the Communist's political base. In Syria, when the Muslim Brotherhood was a huge threat to "President" Hafez al-Assad's power, Assad responded by shelling the Brotherhood-friendly city of Hama so badly that an estimated tenth of the population was killed, as well as killing all Brothers on sight. You either have to remove the root causes and grievances that lead people to become rebels, or you have to commit such horrific violence that no one will dare raise a hand against you. We didn't do either in Viet Nam.
 
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

apdst said:
The Brits developed that strategy in Malaysia in the 50's. It's basically a hearts and minds strategy; the idea being that [you take one area and make life so good that they don't want to fight you anymore]

Bush adoted this strategy in Iraq, or wanted to. I don't know how much it was employed.

Bush adopts British colonial model for Iraq - Telegraph
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Not just make life so good, but instead of trying to occupy the entire country at once, you establish control over a few small already-friendly areas, and slowly expand control until the country is yours.
 
Re: McNamara dies

the makeout hobo said:
this all is what people fail to realize about Vietnam, and similar situations. Guerrilla War is basically continuation of politics by other means. You don't win unless you win the political war. Victory on the battlefield is meaningless if it doesn't change the political or social climate. I mean, look at two guerrilla wars where the establishment won: Syria and Malaysia. In Malaysia, the British were able to reform the Malaysian system enough to basically remove the Communist's political base. In Syria, when the Muslim Brotherhood was a huge threat to "President" Hafez al-Assad's power, Assad responded by shelling the Brotherhood-friendly city of Hama so badly that an estimated tenth of the population was killed, as well as killing all Brothers on sight. You either have to remove the root causes and grievances that lead people to become rebels, or you have to commit such horrific violence that no one will dare raise a hand against you. We didn't do either in Viet Nam.
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I disagree. If you defeat the enemy decisively enough on the battlefield and take away his ability and will to fight, then you've won, regardless of the political environment. We should have treated North Vietnam the same way we treated Germany during WW2. Had we relentlessly bombed Hanoi and Haifong the way we did Dresden and Hamburg starting in 1964 and continued until the Communists in the north surrendered unconditionally, we would have wrapped up the war by 1970, with a definite victory.
 
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

Wooo revisionist history is getting thick in here, we lost Viet Nam and China won, get over it...
 
Re: McNamara dies

apdst said:
I disagree. If you defeat the enemy decisively enough on the battlefield and take away his ability and will to fight, then you've won, regardless of the political environment. We should have treated North Vietnam the same way we treated Germany during WW2. Had we relentlessly bombed Hanoi and Haifong the way we did Dresden and Hamburg starting in 1964 and continued until the Communists in the north surrendered unconditionally, we would have wrapped up the war by 1970, with a definite victory.
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We dropped more bombs on the North than we did on Germany? We bombed the **** out of that country. All civilian bombing does is strengthen resolve. It makes people feel personally under attack, and makes them more prone to defiance. Like I said, you have to make them no longer want to be guerillas, either by love or fear. And we needed more than ariel bombing to instill fear in them, we're talking close to genocide.
 
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

Sturmrabe said:
Wooo revisionist history is getting thick in here, we lost Viet Nam and China won, get over it...
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Care to post something supporting that? I can post all kinds of stuff supporting my position. Can you? The challenge is on, my friend.
 
Re: McNamara dies

the makeout hobo said:
We dropped more bombs on the North than we did on Germany? We bombed the **** out of that country. All civilian bombing does is strengthen resolve. It makes people feel personally under attack, and makes them more prone to defiance. Like I said, you have to make them no longer want to be guerillas, either by love or fear. And we needed more than ariel bombing to instill fear in them, we're talking close to genocide.
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No, we didn't drop more bombs on Northern targets than we did on Germany and if you drop enough bombs, resolve will disolve, as proven during WW2. The quickest way to make them stop wanting to be guerilla is destroy their will to fight, which is what we almost did, even with the half assed tactics we used during the war.
 
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

apdst said:
Care to post something supporting that? I can post all kinds of stuff supporting my position. Can you? The challenge is on, my friend.
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No one with any kind of grasp on the military reality of the situation could ever hold that position, as such nothing I post will be sufficient to break through the imaginary past you've constructed. I've never seen ANYONE so fanatic as to claim that as a mark in win column.

And I'm not just being facetious, I really believe that you are so completely deluded that there is no point in even trying to discuss the issue with you...

But in fairness I can sum up with a simple: You do not evacuate after victory.

We may have won 99% of the military engagements, but we lost the war due to suits telling the military what to do and attrition, and our generation now has its own example. I only hope the next time sh*t hits the fan when the Joint Cheifs speak, PEOPLE LISTEN.
 
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Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

Sturmrabe said:
No one with any kind of grasp on the military reality of the situation could ever hold that position, as such nothing I post will be sufficient to break through the imaginary past you've constructed. I've never seen ANYONE so fanatic as to claim that as a mark in win column.

And I'm not just being facetious, I really believe that you are so completely deluded that there is no point in even trying to discuss the issue with you...

But in fairness I can sum up with a simple: You do not evacuate after victory.

We may have won 99% of the military engagements, but we lost the war due to suits telling the military what to do and attrition, and our generation now has its own example. I only hope the next time sh*t hits the fan when the Joint Cheifs speak, PEOPLE LISTEN.
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I'll match you source for source. I'm not the sort that shoots the messanger on a subject like this, like some people. You game? Or, are you just buying into the real revisionist history that you've been erroneously taught your whole life?
 
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