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Thread: Robert McNamara, ex-defense secretary, dies

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    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by the makeout hobo View Post
    Our ultimate objective, a free and democratic South Vietnam was ultimately lost. Military victory is irrelevent if political victory doesn't follow.
    Since the Vietnam war's ultimate objective was to thwart expansionist, agressive Communist policy... we did achieve some victory.

    And even though it is unclear whether Reds would have persisted in this aggressive policy if South Vietnam had capitulated without our intervention... it is clear that their policy was ended, or post-poned, when we did intervene.
    “Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failure...than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.”
    -TR

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    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubub View Post
    Since the Vietnam war's ultimate objective was to thwart expansionist, agressive Communist policy... we did achieve some victory.
    Doesn't taking over south Vietnam count as expanding and aggressive?
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

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    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Doesn't taking over south Vietnam count as expanding and aggressive?
    The Chinese warred Vietnam instead of continuing to assist them. Vietnam overthrew the Communist government in Camobodia. There was a Sino-Soviet split. There was no longer the huge second world support of Communist forces in third world countries(For a while).There were no more dominoes.... I am not saying we achieved ultimate victory, but victory is not always so black and white. We did win a partial victory.
    “Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failure...than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.”
    -TR

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    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubub View Post
    The Chinese warred Vietnam instead of continuing to assist them. Vietnam overthrew the Communist government in Camobodia. There was a Sino-Soviet split. There was no longer the huge second world support of Communist forces in third world countries(For a while).There were no more dominoes.... I am not saying we achieved ultimate victory, but victory is not always so black and white. We did win a partial victory.
    So in essence, the enemy we lost to did more to stop down communism than we did by hitting Cambodia.

    Also, did Laos not become a communist country after we lost Vietnam?

    Seems to me the expansion, or stopping of the expansion, was not affected by our involvement.
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    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubub View Post
    Nixon bomed Hanoi and it didn't seem to win us the war. It was much more than that anyway... we needed to assault enemy sanctuaries across the border in force. Thailand, Laos, Cambodia... even North Vietnam if possible. Bombing would need to be directed at the North Vietnamese capital but also at North Vietnamese harbors... All this with a troop surge, a concerted anti-Viet Cong effort, and a campaign to win the hearts and minds of the South Vietnamese people. It would've taken a lot for total victory, but it was possible.
    Please noted which year I stated 1965 not 1969 big difference if Rolling Thunder had attacked Hanoi and Haiphong in 65 things would have been very different.

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    Re: McNamara dies

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    So we lost.

    Think of it this way, if two teams are playing hockey, and one team dominates the game but accidentally scores three own-goals, while only scoring two goals for their own team, they lose.

    Dominating all game don't mean **** if the objective is lost.
    A war isn't a hockey game and we didn't score any own goals.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: McNamara dies

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    A war isn't a hockey game and we didn't score any own goals.
    Is Vietnam a communist regime?
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    Re: McNamara dies

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    mcnamara was a child prodigy, who subscribed to the belief in his greatness

    he thought he could apply his "whiz kid" analytical approaches that he used at ford to create efficiencies in the military

    he was very wrong about that, and later about our prospects for success in vietnam

    he was the wrong fellow in the wrong job at the wrong time ... the blame most goes to the person who selected him for the position: JFK

    later, mcnamara screwed up the world bank about like he did our defense department

    he epitomized the saying that being smart is not enough


    I think that a lot of the problem was that McNamara - as well as most of the Pentagon - was thinking in terms of a traditional land war, like they'd fought in Europe and in Korea, and was unable and/or unwilling to face the reality of a guerrila-type war in the jungles of Southeast Asia.

    However, the SecDef serves the POTUS, and if the war is going to be micro-managed from 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, then the SecDef either goes along with it, or resigns.

    All I'll say about Robert McNamara is this - He and the "whiz kids" were supposed to have done one helluva job at Ford Motor before he came to Washington. Maybe he shoulda stayed at Ford...
    SpotsCat is a ® trademark of SpotsCat Intergalactic Enterprises LLC, All Rights Reserved. Unauthorized use of the exceptionally witty material contained herein shall be prostituted to the fullest extent. Trespassers will be shot.

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    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    So in essence, the enemy we lost to did more to stop down communism than we did by hitting Cambodia.

    Also, did Laos not become a communist country after we lost Vietnam?

    Seems to me the expansion, or stopping of the expansion, was not affected by our involvement.
    How would you form that conclusion? The war in Vietnam was essentially a war in IndoChina, which consists of Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam... We knew that if Vietnam fell, the other two would likely follow suit.

    But what we also believed was that without intervention, Communist expansion would continue into the Pacific Islands... Did that happen? NO. Why? I won't spell it out for you again... especially when your just laughing saying crap I already acknowledged. The mods always seem to be the most immature people on this site.
    “Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failure...than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.”
    -TR

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    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubub View Post
    How would you form that conclusion? The war in Vietnam was essentially a war in IndoChina, which consists of Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam... We knew that if Vietnam fell, the other two would likely follow suit.

    But what we also believed was that without intervention, Communist expansion would continue into the Pacific Islands... Did that happen? NO. Why? I won't spell it out for you again... especially when your just laughing saying crap I already acknowledged.
    And I won't spell it out for you. Communist expansion continued AFTER the US lost the war. The goal of the war was to STOP communist expansion, not slow it down.

    When we entered the war, the goal was to prevent North Vietnam form defeating South Vietnam. Since that goal was never attained, we can't change the goal posts and cal lit a victory because something we didn't know would happen, but feared might happen, didn't actually happen.


    The mods always seem to be the most immature people on this site.
    I have not once resorted to an insult while talking with you, but you resort to one while talking to me. What was that about maturity?

    For the record, don't resort to such tactics again with me or there will be consequences. Consider that a warning.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

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