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Thread: Robert McNamara, ex-defense secretary, dies

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    Re: McNamara dies

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    No, we didn't drop more bombs on Northern targets than we did on Germany and if you drop enough bombs, resolve will disolve, as proven during WW2.
    Umm... how was resolve broken? I mean, look at England. It just made them fight harder.

    The quickest way to make them stop wanting to be guerilla is destroy their will to fight, which is what we almost did, even with the half assed tactics we used during the war.
    How did we destroy it? We were being fought until we left.
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    Re: McNamara dies

    Quote Originally Posted by the makeout hobo View Post
    Umm... how was resolve broken? I mean, look at England. It just made them fight harder.
    Germany's resolve was broken by all the bombing. The Germans in no way inflicted the same amount of damage on England that the Allies inflicted on Germany.



    How did we destroy it? We were being fought until we left.
    Well, first off, we rendered the Viet Cong combat ineffective. All the local force VC units were disbanded and main force VC units were absorbed by the NVA. Second, I never claimed we destroyed their will to fight, but we did destroy the North's political will to carry on, as long as US troops were operating in theater, hence The Treaty of Paris. The Communists didn't sign that treaty because they were winning hands down.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I'll match you source for source. I'm not the sort that shoots the messanger on a subject like this, like some people. You game? Or, are you just buying into the real revisionist history that you've been erroneously taught your whole life?
    If I had any hope of getting a real debate out of this I would, and if it was on ANY other topic I might entertain it anyway even without that hope for the sake of a good argument, but I simply cannot wrap my mind around how you can take that stance.

    Really, just the thought that someone could sincerely hold that postition, I don't even know where to begin!

    Have you seen the footage of the US evacuation?
    I can KINDA see what you are getting at with they whole "they signed a peace treaty then violated" thing... but seriously, that was a fumbling attempt for the US to save face in front of an all out retreat/evacuation as a prelude to complete occupation by the north.

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    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by Sturmrabe View Post
    If I had any hope of getting a real debate out of this I would, and if it was on ANY other topic I might entertain it anyway even without that hope for the sake of a good argument, but I simply cannot wrap my mind around how you can take that stance.

    Really, just the thought that someone could sincerely hold that postition, I don't even know where to begin!

    If you're scared, say your scared. If it's so obvious that you're right, then it should be a cake walk for you.

    Have you seen the footage of the US evacuation?
    I sure have. Have you? Did you notice that those were civilian employees in the US embassy? Do you realize American combat forces had been re-deployed from Vietnam for two years prior to that footage being shot? Those weren't American combat forces being evaced in 1975. You are aware of that, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    I was going to edit this in but you might be replying now so that wouldn't be fair, I'd like to respond to this:
    No, we didn't drop more bombs on Northern targets than we did on Germany and if you drop enough bombs, resolve will disolve, as proven during WW2.
    The differances between the two are so astronomical as to defy easy exemplification.

    Also, I'm pretty sure that per capita we did.

    Lets start with the basics: The Germans like in open feilds and cities in brick, concrete or timber constructed homes with lots of goods and items that are not easlily moved.

    The Viet Cong lived in grass huts in jungles and all their worldly possessions could be strapped to their backs and moved in a matter of minutes...

    So do you see how this analogy breaks down fundamentally or should I go on?

    Bombs don't work on people in thick jungles with grass houses like they do on Europeans.

    The cultural and economic differences are usually the hardest things for people with preconceived notions to comprehend.
    Last edited by Sturmrabe; 07-06-09 at 09:49 PM.

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    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    If you're scared, say your scared. If it's so obvious that you're right, then it should be a cake walk for you.
    Not scared, try bored...
    I sure have. Have you? Did you notice that those were civilian employees in the US embassy? Do you realize American combat forces had been re-deployed from Vietnam for two years prior to that footage being shot? Those weren't American combat forces being evaced in 1975. You are aware of that, right?
    The point is why are people who have association with the Americans deadly afraid of the rape and slaughter approaching them if America won?

    Oh wait, its that America won, but the South Vietamese lost so its all their fault right?

    Riiiiiiiiiiiight....

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    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    If you're scared, say your scared. If it's so obvious that you're right, then it should be a cake walk for you.



    I sure have. Have you? Did you notice that those were civilian employees in the US embassy? Do you realize American combat forces had been re-deployed from Vietnam for two years prior to that footage being shot? Those weren't American combat forces being evaced in 1975. You are aware of that, right?
    You are more right than the others, but also flawed in your thinking. Saying outright that Vietnam was a victory will insinuate that you believe our ultimate objective was achieved... when it wasn't. But the war was not lost on the battlefield, it was lost at home. It was a political and moral defeat, not a military one... The American GI in Vietnam demonstrated some of the greatest feats of bravery and ingenuity in the history of Western warfare, defeating thousands of entrenched NVA troops in Hue. The marines inflicted thousands of casualities while sustaining some 150. That is one for the history books.

    As for the American military leadership...they were incompetent. Many blame politicians like McNamara... but Westy and the rest of MACV were also unshamingly not fit for the job. Westy was by no means a terrible general and to be scapegoated, and some could make the argument he was forced to fight the war like he did, but a good general would've found more effective methods of reaching the military's ultimate objective... not just stacking up body counts and giving the soldiers and the homefront absolutely no physical signs of victory.

    As for the American military itself... evolved. It learned the techniques and methods of counter-insurgency, developed the proper tactics to defeat a guerilla enemy, and demonstrated unbelievably awesome firepower. They fought with hands tied behind their back... but by Nixon's Presidency, they were more independent. If their had been a serious concerted effort in 1969-1971 to defeat the North Vietnamese, without sluggish attempts to limit the war, we could've seen total victory.
    Last edited by Tubub; 07-06-09 at 09:53 PM.
    “Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failure...than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.”
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    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by Sturmrabe View Post
    I was going to edit this in but you might be replying now so that wouldn't be fair, I'd like to respond to this:
    The differances between the two are so astronomical as to defy easy exemplification.

    Lets start with the basics: The Germans like in open feilds and cities in brick, concrete or timber constructed homes with lots of goods and items that are not easlily moved.

    The Viet Cong lived in grass huts in jungles and all their worldly possessions could be strapped to their backs and moved in a matter of minutes...

    So do you see how this analogy breaks down fundamentally or should I go on?

    Bombs don't work on people in thick jungles with grass houses like they do on Europeans.

    The cultural and economic differences are usually the hardest things for people with preconceived notions to comprehend.
    Who said anything about bombing grass huts in the countryside. Go back and see that I pointed to built up areas such as Hanoi and Haiphong. You want to try and break down the analogy and don't even know what I'm talking about. Wanna try again?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    The main reason we lost the War was that Sect.McNamara wouldn't allow the bombing of Hanoi and Haiphong in 1965 if Rolling Thunder was allowed to attack these two Cities then the out come of the war would have been far different.

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    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Who said anything about bombing grass huts in the countryside. Go back and see that I pointed to built up areas such as Hanoi and Haiphong. You want to try and break down the analogy and don't even know what I'm talking about. Wanna try again?
    The simple fact is the majority of the North's fighting forces were in those grass huts, and if you can't get to them you can't break their back,[or I should get their families], any comparisons between those wars are spurrious at best.

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