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Thread: Robert McNamara, ex-defense secretary, dies

  1. #41
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    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by the makeout hobo View Post
    Who was it that came up with the ink blot strategy again? If we had practiced that, treated it like the anti-guerilla operation it was instead of a conventional war, we might have won.
    The Brits developed that strategy in Malaysia in the 50's. It's basically a hearts and minds strategy; the idea being that [you take one area and make life so good that they don't want to fight you anymore]

    Bush adoted this strategy in Iraq, or wanted to. I don't know how much it was employed.

    Bush adopts British colonial model for Iraq - Telegraph
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: McNamara dies

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    We defeated the enemy on the battlefield. While our political goal was botched, because of the violation of a leagal and binding treaty and no one bothered to enforce that treaty, as promised; we did achieve our objective on the battlefield and that was to force the enemy into submission. It went wrong when we didn't force them into submission, enough. This is what happens when wars are fought on the political front instead of the battle front.

    The South Vietnamese lost to The North, because we didn't give them the support we promised. US forces were never defeated by the Communists in Southeast Asia.
    this all is what people fail to realize about Vietnam, and similar situations. Guerrilla War is basically continuation of politics by other means. You don't win unless you win the political war. Victory on the battlefield is meaningless if it doesn't change the political or social climate. I mean, look at two guerrilla wars where the establishment won: Syria and Malaysia. In Malaysia, the British were able to reform the Malaysian system enough to basically remove the Communist's political base. In Syria, when the Muslim Brotherhood was a huge threat to "President" Hafez al-Assad's power, Assad responded by shelling the Brotherhood-friendly city of Hama so badly that an estimated tenth of the population was killed, as well as killing all Brothers on sight. You either have to remove the root causes and grievances that lead people to become rebels, or you have to commit such horrific violence that no one will dare raise a hand against you. We didn't do either in Viet Nam.
    The Makeout Hobo is real, and does indeed travel around the country in his van and make out with ladies... If you meet the Makeout Hobo, it is customary to greet him with a shot of whiskey and a high five (if you are a dude) or passionate makeouts (if you are a lady).

  3. #43
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    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The Brits developed that strategy in Malaysia in the 50's. It's basically a hearts and minds strategy; the idea being that [you take one area and make life so good that they don't want to fight you anymore]

    Bush adoted this strategy in Iraq, or wanted to. I don't know how much it was employed.

    Bush adopts British colonial model for Iraq - Telegraph
    Not just make life so good, but instead of trying to occupy the entire country at once, you establish control over a few small already-friendly areas, and slowly expand control until the country is yours.
    The Makeout Hobo is real, and does indeed travel around the country in his van and make out with ladies... If you meet the Makeout Hobo, it is customary to greet him with a shot of whiskey and a high five (if you are a dude) or passionate makeouts (if you are a lady).

  4. #44
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    Re: McNamara dies

    Quote Originally Posted by the makeout hobo View Post
    this all is what people fail to realize about Vietnam, and similar situations. Guerrilla War is basically continuation of politics by other means. You don't win unless you win the political war. Victory on the battlefield is meaningless if it doesn't change the political or social climate. I mean, look at two guerrilla wars where the establishment won: Syria and Malaysia. In Malaysia, the British were able to reform the Malaysian system enough to basically remove the Communist's political base. In Syria, when the Muslim Brotherhood was a huge threat to "President" Hafez al-Assad's power, Assad responded by shelling the Brotherhood-friendly city of Hama so badly that an estimated tenth of the population was killed, as well as killing all Brothers on sight. You either have to remove the root causes and grievances that lead people to become rebels, or you have to commit such horrific violence that no one will dare raise a hand against you. We didn't do either in Viet Nam.
    I disagree. If you defeat the enemy decisively enough on the battlefield and take away his ability and will to fight, then you've won, regardless of the political environment. We should have treated North Vietnam the same way we treated Germany during WW2. Had we relentlessly bombed Hanoi and Haifong the way we did Dresden and Hamburg starting in 1964 and continued until the Communists in the north surrendered unconditionally, we would have wrapped up the war by 1970, with a definite victory.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    Wooo revisionist history is getting thick in here, we lost Viet Nam and China won, get over it...

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    Re: McNamara dies

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I disagree. If you defeat the enemy decisively enough on the battlefield and take away his ability and will to fight, then you've won, regardless of the political environment. We should have treated North Vietnam the same way we treated Germany during WW2. Had we relentlessly bombed Hanoi and Haifong the way we did Dresden and Hamburg starting in 1964 and continued until the Communists in the north surrendered unconditionally, we would have wrapped up the war by 1970, with a definite victory.
    We dropped more bombs on the North than we did on Germany? We bombed the **** out of that country. All civilian bombing does is strengthen resolve. It makes people feel personally under attack, and makes them more prone to defiance. Like I said, you have to make them no longer want to be guerillas, either by love or fear. And we needed more than ariel bombing to instill fear in them, we're talking close to genocide.
    The Makeout Hobo is real, and does indeed travel around the country in his van and make out with ladies... If you meet the Makeout Hobo, it is customary to greet him with a shot of whiskey and a high five (if you are a dude) or passionate makeouts (if you are a lady).

  7. #47
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    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by Sturmrabe View Post
    Wooo revisionist history is getting thick in here, we lost Viet Nam and China won, get over it...
    Care to post something supporting that? I can post all kinds of stuff supporting my position. Can you? The challenge is on, my friend.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  8. #48
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    Re: McNamara dies

    Quote Originally Posted by the makeout hobo View Post
    We dropped more bombs on the North than we did on Germany? We bombed the **** out of that country. All civilian bombing does is strengthen resolve. It makes people feel personally under attack, and makes them more prone to defiance. Like I said, you have to make them no longer want to be guerillas, either by love or fear. And we needed more than ariel bombing to instill fear in them, we're talking close to genocide.
    No, we didn't drop more bombs on Northern targets than we did on Germany and if you drop enough bombs, resolve will disolve, as proven during WW2. The quickest way to make them stop wanting to be guerilla is destroy their will to fight, which is what we almost did, even with the half assed tactics we used during the war.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Care to post something supporting that? I can post all kinds of stuff supporting my position. Can you? The challenge is on, my friend.
    No one with any kind of grasp on the military reality of the situation could ever hold that position, as such nothing I post will be sufficient to break through the imaginary past you've constructed. I've never seen ANYONE so fanatic as to claim that as a mark in win column.

    And I'm not just being facetious, I really believe that you are so completely deluded that there is no point in even trying to discuss the issue with you...

    But in fairness I can sum up with a simple: You do not evacuate after victory.

    We may have won 99% of the military engagements, but we lost the war due to suits telling the military what to do and attrition, and our generation now has its own example. I only hope the next time sh*t hits the fan when the Joint Cheifs speak, PEOPLE LISTEN.
    Last edited by Sturmrabe; 07-06-09 at 09:27 PM.

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    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by Sturmrabe View Post
    No one with any kind of grasp on the military reality of the situation could ever hold that position, as such nothing I post will be sufficient to break through the imaginary past you've constructed. I've never seen ANYONE so fanatic as to claim that as a mark in win column.

    And I'm not just being facetious, I really believe that you are so completely deluded that there is no point in even trying to discuss the issue with you...

    But in fairness I can sum up with a simple: You do not evacuate after victory.

    We may have won 99% of the military engagements, but we lost the war due to suits telling the military what to do and attrition, and our generation now has its own example. I only hope the next time sh*t hits the fan when the Joint Cheifs speak, PEOPLE LISTEN.
    I'll match you source for source. I'm not the sort that shoots the messanger on a subject like this, like some people. You game? Or, are you just buying into the real revisionist history that you've been erroneously taught your whole life?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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