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Thread: Robert McNamara, ex-defense secretary, dies

  1. #161
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    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by akyron View Post
    US foreign policy since 1947 was sheer containment and was fine until we got all up in nato again in 49(Have we seen something like this before?).
    What occured between 1947-1949 that you approved of that didn't occur during NATO membership in the 50s and 60s? The US brought the Korean conflict to the UN, so what does being "all up in" NATO have to do with it?

    So yeah as soon as the US lowers its guard the enemies do not lower theirs. They take advantage of the opportunity to screw us.
    You would be keen to review my posts and this argument. I do not know what your claiming, but if it is relevant to the discussion than I certainly can't see how.

    Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. We are in for a hellish time coming and soon.
    Explain.
    “Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failure...than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.”
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    Re: Robert McNamara, ex-defense secretary, dies

    Moderator's Warning:
    Robert McNamara, ex-defense secretary, diesTubub and Coronado. Cease the personal attacks and the internet bravado, or you both will find yourselves with thread bans and possibly infractions.
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    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubub View Post
    What occured between 1947-1949 that you approved of that didn't occur during NATO membership in the 50s and 60s? The US brought the Korean conflict to the UN, so what does being "all up in" NATO have to do with it?.
    The Truman Doctrine, 1947
    Standing against communism without being chained to a particular country.

    Nato and Warsaw was deja vu hence the recreation of nearly the same treaty structure that drew the world powers into World War I and II.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubub View Post
    except that the North Vietnamese would've been able to conquer the south much more easily and with much less casualities. The Chinese and Soviet Union would see American resolve as weak and would not be wary of their expansionist policies.
    ..
    When our leaders are seen as weak or inexperienced or even both we can ususally expect trouble.

    Did North Korea Launch a Sophisticated Cyber Attack Against the U.S.?

    Defiant N Korea launches rocket

    North Korea fires missiles in 4th of July salvo

    It is interesting how the events of yesterday sometimes mirror the events of today.
    Thank you

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    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    I would disbute that the Soviet Union ever wanted to take over the world. It was more concerned with maintaining hemogency over its borders then anything else.
    Well you can “dispute” it all you want but your history is desperately seeking some facts. The notion that the Soviet Union was not trying to export it’s version of Communism throughout the world defies logic and requires either willful ignorance or the willful suspension of disbelief.

    How do you explain the Berlin Wall; the Soviet Tanks in Hungary; Cuba?


    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    It gave aid to the Afgan monarchy and refused to assist in overthrowing the Shah of Iran [whom they even gave weapons/aid to at one stage] as they feared it would damage their entente with the West.
    First off, did you not see when Soviet troops invaded and took over the country of Afghanistan and installed a puppet Communist regime?

    Secondly, what the hell does the Soviet Union have to do with the Shah of Iran? WE were the ones supporting the Shah while the Soviet Union armed Egypt, Syria and Jordan.


    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    The whole idea of exporting revolution across the world died with Lennin.
    Stalin was much worse than Lenin. For your edification, Stalin came AFTER Lennin and was in power during the Vietnam War, Cuban Missile Crisis and the building of the Berlin Wall.


    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    As regards Robert McNamara the one thing you can say to his credit is that he showed a degree of repetance and recognition of how non-sensical much of the cold war was [and as Middleground said it his perspective shreads alot of light on the Vietnam war] Have a look at

    YouTube - The For of War (Part 9)
    Repentance is something we should give credit for after 58,000 American lives were sacrificed at the alter of Kennedy/Johnson’s and McNamara’s failed policies?

    You know what profound irony is; it comes about when dealing with liberals like you, when you are so willing to give credit to those who screwed up badly but so quick to impugn those you wish would screw up badly for the simple fact that they are Republicans.

    Based on your version of historic events, I can only say that I am not surprised by your lack of knowledge and why you would support Liberal causes. I find that the “uninformed” or “ill” informed usually gravitate towards Liberalism.

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    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by akyron View Post
    The Truman Doctrine, 1947
    Standing against communism without being chained to a particular country.

    Nato and Warsaw was deja vu hence the recreation of nearly the same treaty structure that drew the world powers into World War I and II.



    When our leaders are seen as weak or inexperienced or even both we can ususally expect trouble.

    Did North Korea Launch a Sophisticated Cyber Attack Against the U.S.?

    Defiant N Korea launches rocket

    North Korea fires missiles in 4th of July salvo

    It is interesting how the events of yesterday sometimes mirror the events of today.
    oh... so your agreeing with me?
    “Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failure...than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.”
    -TR

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    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    TD, I think you meant to say Khrushchev.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Robert McNamara, ex-defense secretary, dies

    The tragedy of Robert McNamara is we failed to learn from the mistakes of Vietnam, and thus repeated them again. Afghanistan was the right war, the just war, and the war we needed to fight then and there.

    Iraq was a distraction that has cost us dearly in Afghanistan, the lives of thousands of US personal, 150,000+ minimum death toll for Iraqis. Our credibility, favorability, and respect plummeted at a time when we most needed cooperation. There was no Al-Qaeda, although we actually managed to create the environment for Al-Qaeda in Iraq to form post invasion. We did exactly as Bin Laden preached for years that we would do, invade an oil rich Arab nation. To make matters worse we had the embarrassment of Abu Ghraib. Our one success post invasion seemed to be a uniting of Arab populations against us, to actually increase the level of human and material support to the very enemy. We alienated friends, and strengthened our enemies. Iran certainly became a bigger winner in all of this, more so than the U.S. (anyone thinking maybe we should just send them the bill?). Afghanistan has now lingered for 8+ years with a lack of resources. What a novel concept the new offensive being undertaken in the south today, that concept of actually holding territory instead of giving it back to the Taliban.....something that needed to be done 8 years ago.

    I would give anything to someday, somehow, be the fly on the wall in a private meeting of both Bushes, Cheney, and Brent Scowcroft. Strangely, and I guess ironically, George Bush I achievement at building a true international coalition must certainly be respected and admired more so now today. If GWB would have truly been his father's son, we would be in a much different world today, a much better one at that.

    Point is there are a lot of parrellels to the mistakes in Vietnam that we replicated 40 years after. Watching one of McNamara's final interviews was strange in how much he could have been talking about Iraq. Worst, by every single account we will sweep the mistakes of Iraq under the rug, and insure that a future generation will make the same f** up.

  8. #168
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    Re: Robert McNamara, ex-defense secretary, dies

    Quote Originally Posted by sam_w View Post
    The tragedy of Robert McNamara is we failed to learn from the mistakes of Vietnam, and thus repeated them again. Afghanistan was the right war, the just war, and the war we needed to fight then and there.

    Iraq was a distraction that has cost us dearly in Afghanistan, the lives of thousands of US personal, 150,000+ minimum death toll for Iraqis. Our credibility, favorability, and respect plummeted at a time when we most needed cooperation. There was no Al-Qaeda, although we actually managed to create the environment for Al-Qaeda in Iraq to form post invasion. We did exactly as Bin Laden preached for years that we would do, invade an oil rich Arab nation. To make matters worse we had the embarrassment of Abu Ghraib. Our one success post invasion seemed to be a uniting of Arab populations against us, to actually increase the level of human and material support to the very enemy. We alienated friends, and strengthened our enemies. Iran certainly became a bigger winner in all of this, more so than the U.S. (anyone thinking maybe we should just send them the bill?). Afghanistan has now lingered for 8+ years with a lack of resources. What a novel concept the new offensive being undertaken in the south today, that concept of actually holding territory instead of giving it back to the Taliban.....something that needed to be done 8 years ago.

    I would give anything to someday, somehow, be the fly on the wall in a private meeting of both Bushes, Cheney, and Brent Scowcroft. Strangely, and I guess ironically, George Bush I achievement at building a true international coalition must certainly be respected and admired more so now today. If GWB would have truly been his father's son, we would be in a much different world today, a much better one at that.

    Point is there are a lot of parrellels to the mistakes in Vietnam that we replicated 40 years after. Watching one of McNamara's final interviews was strange in how much he could have been talking about Iraq. Worst, by every single account we will sweep the mistakes of Iraq under the rug, and insure that a future generation will make the same f** up.
    Great speech, but why do you stop at Vietnam? Every single war has the same mistakes made in it, except for one thing. That is whether the war ends in victory or defeat for our side.

    You associate Desert Storm as a victory because we achieved our objectives, but Hussein was not defeated. You associate OIF as a defeat because you think it was a wasted war. Actually there was only one Gulf War, and it just ended more or less. Just as WWII was a continuation of WWI, OIF was a continuation of Desert Storm. OEF is a completely different "war". It has a different kind of enemy. It's not a war against a state, but against an ideology or an extreme sect of a religion (Islam).
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

  9. #169
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    Re: Robert McNamara, ex-defense secretary, dies

    Quote Originally Posted by sam_w View Post
    Iraq was a distraction that has cost us dearly in Afghanistan, the lives of thousands of US personal, 150,000+ minimum death toll for Iraqis. Our credibility, favorability, and respect plummeted at a time when we most needed cooperation. There was no Al-Qaeda, although we actually managed to create the environment for Al-Qaeda in Iraq to form post invasion. We did exactly as Bin Laden preached for years that we would do, invade an oil rich Arab nation. To make matters worse we had the embarrassment of Abu Ghraib. Our one success post invasion seemed to be a uniting of Arab populations against us, to actually increase the level of human and material support to the very enemy. We alienated friends, and strengthened our enemies. Iran certainly became a bigger winner in all of this, more so than the U.S. (anyone thinking maybe we should just send them the bill?). Afghanistan has now lingered for 8+ years with a lack of resources. What a novel concept the new offensive being undertaken in the south today, that concept of actually holding territory instead of giving it back to the Taliban.....something that needed to be done 8 years ago.
    You are looking at the negatives of the Iraq war, which have undoubtedly been very well reported. But what you seem to ignore is that Iraq was still a battlefield and political defeat for Al Qaida. Al Qaida did not have an alignment with Saddam Hussein, but they still had a small pool of people operating and recruiting in Iraq... That is why Al Zarqawi was in Iraq in 2002. Saddam Hussein, indifferent to such forces and a sponsor of other terrorist groups, has been overthrown and his brutal regime ended. The Ba'athists have been replaced by a free, democratic government... one that fights terror instead of supporting it. It is unclear whether it will truely end on the right side and it a lot of bloodshed could've been avoided, but the war was not a failure or defeat in the same sense Vietnam was. Vietnam embodied the serious ills with Western society that weren't shared by our Vietnamese foes... self-dissent and free media at its very worst and most counter-productive.


    Point is there are a lot of parrellels to the mistakes in Vietnam that we replicated 40 years after. Watching one of McNamara's final interviews was strange in how much he could have been talking about Iraq. Worst, by every single account we will sweep the mistakes of Iraq under the rug, and insure that a future generation will make the same f** up.
    The only physical things Iraq shares with Vietnam is that there was an insurgency in both wars, and incompetent leadership in the first years of both wars. But if you dissect either, it is clear they are completely different wars... Starting with the fact one is the ME in the other in South East Asia, and going into the matter that one was launched against Communism and the other purpoted to be launched against Militant Islam and Tyranny.
    “Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failure...than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.”
    -TR

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