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Thread: Robert McNamara, ex-defense secretary, dies

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    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    Sure but the killings extended beyond "Communists" to those expressing legitimate dissent. [as the article explains] and the killing of random doctors and teachers was more of a Khmer Rouge thing. And like i say this needs to be put in perspective with the amount of people killed during the war
    I don't know where this conversation really began but... Diem certainly was not a good leader. He persecuted Buddhists and was a nepotist, trying to make his family some kind of aristocracy. He dismissed and demoted any able commanders, fearing they could threaten his place of power...And for those reasons, and many more, we supported a coup d'eat to remove him.

    I don't really get what your trying to imply by pointing out his terrible and wannabe authoritarian leadership.
    “Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failure...than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.”
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    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Are we having to argue Vietnam all over again? All because McNamara died.
    We argue Vietnam "all over again" because many people have the wrong idea about it.

    "No event in American history is more misunderstood than the Vietnam War. It was misreported then, and it is misremembered now." Richard M. Nixon

    “Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failure...than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.”
    -TR

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    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubub View Post
    I don't know where this conversation really began but... Diem certainly was not a good leader. He persecuted Buddhists and was a nepotist, trying to make his family some kind of aristocracy. He dismissed and demoted any able commanders, fearing they could threaten his place of power...And for those reasons, and many more, we supported a coup d'eat to remove him.

    I don't really get what your trying to imply by pointing out his terrible and wannabe authoritarian leadership.
    Thats understandable I was asking why Diem was worth defending in responce to TD complaining that the U.S abandoned South Vietnam. I found this odd given that vietnam ended up with a capatalist dictatorship anyway without the loss of life that continuing to back South Vietnam would have entailed.

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    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    Sure but the killings extended beyond "Communists" to those expressing legitimate dissent. [as the article explains] and the killing of random doctors and teachers was more of a Khmer Rouge thing. And like i say this needs to be put in perspective with the amount of people killed during the war
    It wasn't just the Khmer Rouge. The North Vietnamese Communists killed thousands of people during the Tet Offensive and ever more in 1975 when South Vietnam fell.

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Are we having to argue Vietnam all over again? All because McNamara died.
    Sure, why not? Interesting history. Isn't it? I would wager that a few people that have been monitoring this thread have learned quiet a bit about that period. More than they learned in their revisionist history classes in school, to be sure. It was in junior high that I fell in love with history. In the process of writing a report for class I found out that most of what was in my 7th grade history text book was either bee-ess, or only told half the story. Needless to say, I pissed off several history teachers when I called shanannigans in the middle of class.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    Thats understandable I was asking why Diem was worth defending in responce to TD complaining that the U.S abandoned South Vietnam. I found this odd given that vietnam ended up with a capatalist dictatorship anyway without the loss of life that continuing to back South Vietnam would have entailed.
    Your chronology isn't exactly accurate, American combat units didn't start showing up in Vietnam until after Diem was overhtrown.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    It wasn't just the Khmer Rouge. The North Vietnamese Communists killed thousands of people during the Tet Offensive and ever more in 1975 when South Vietnam fell.
    Sure but my question still stands.

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    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    Sure but my question still stands.

    I've already answered your question. It wasn't about supporting Diem, or Thieu. It was about defeating Communism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I've already answered your question. It wasn't about supporting Diem, or Thieu. It was about defeating Communism.
    I was thinking more along the lines of number of people killed by the "communists" after the war vs number of people killed during the war.

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    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    I was thinking more along the lines of number of people killed by the "communists" after the war vs number of people killed during the war.
    Well, the difference between the people killed by the Communists--no need for quotes, they're really Communists--and the people killed during the war, is that the people killed by the Communists after the war would have died, anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    I was thinking more along the lines of number of people killed by the "communists" after the war vs number of people killed during the war.
    Ahh you do bring up good points then

    But, keep in mind the huge paradox that would've occured if no American intervention had occured... Since that is such a huge thing to say, there is really no telling what would've occured otherwise except that the North Vietnamese would've been able to conquer the south much more easily and with much less casualities. The Chinese and Soviet Union would see American resolve as weak and would not be wary of their expansionist policies.
    Last edited by Tubub; 07-07-09 at 10:21 PM.
    “Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failure...than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.”
    -TR

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