Page 14 of 17 FirstFirst ... 41213141516 ... LastLast
Results 131 to 140 of 169

Thread: Robert McNamara, ex-defense secretary, dies

  1. #131
    Sage
    apdst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bagdad, La.
    Last Seen
    Today @ 09:57 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    76,356

    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    What I dont see is how Diem was worth defending. By defending South Vietnam America was fighting for the preservation of a capitalist dictatorship.
    The Communists slaughtered millions of people after the US left Southeast Asia. It wasn't that Diem was worth defending, as much as it was that Communism was worth defeating.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  2. #132
    Libertarian socialist

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Staffs, England
    Last Seen
    12-01-17 @ 11:26 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    6,730

    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The Communists slaughtered millions of people after the US left Southeast Asia. It wasn't that Diem was worth defending, as much as it was that Communism was worth defeating.
    Well if your talking about Pol Pot then that makes little sence as he wasnt communist or even Starlinist and it was North Vietnam that removed him from power. If your refering to the fall of South Vietnam then im sure it was very bloody but how does it compare to the amount of people killed before hand?

  3. #133
    Sage
    apdst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bagdad, La.
    Last Seen
    Today @ 09:57 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    76,356

    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    Well ive never been a huge fan of the soviet bloc if thats what you mean, but captalist dictators were no better. Look at how many died during the dirty war operation Condor etc, not to mention how many Diem killed off.
    I was never aware that Diem conducted any mass killings.

    As regards Cambodia are you refering to Pol Pot or the North vietnamise invasion of Cambodia [which removed Pol Pot]?
    Cambodia was a double edged sword. While it's true that Vietnam removed Pol Pot, the Vietnamese also committed atrocities after the kicked Pol Pot out.

    Still as regards vietnam i was talking more about the different outcomes. Todays outcome is that Vietnam is a state capatilist dictatorship, a similar outcome would have been brought about by Diem so why would it have been worth wasting so many more lives defending him?
    There's no way to really say that Diem's Vietnam would resemble Communist Vietnam.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  4. #134
    Sage
    apdst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bagdad, La.
    Last Seen
    Today @ 09:57 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    76,356

    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    Well if your talking about Pol Pot then that makes little sence as he wasnt communist or even Starlinist and it was North Vietnam that removed him from power. If your refering to the fall of South Vietnam then im sure it was very bloody but how does it compare to the amount of people killed before hand?
    The Communists in Laos and Vietnam went on killing sprees on the same scale as Pol Pot after the US left Vietnam.

    The Khmer Rouge raided into Vietnam and the Vietnamese Army raided into Cambodia, until finally over-running the country and installing their own government. The Vietnamese Army is responsible for killing thousands in the Khmer region of Cambodia, plus Hmong tribesmen all over Vietnam and Cambodia.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  5. #135
    Libertarian socialist

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Staffs, England
    Last Seen
    12-01-17 @ 11:26 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    6,730

    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I was never aware that Diem conducted any mass killings.



    Cambodia was a double edged sword. While it's true that Vietnam removed Pol Pot, the Vietnamese also committed atrocities after the kicked Pol Pot out.



    There's no way to really say that Diem's Vietnam would resemble Communist Vietnam.
    Well according to wikipedia "Tortures and killings of "communist suspects" were committed on a daily basis. The death toll was put at around 50,000 with 75,000 imprisonments, and Diem's effort extended beyond communists to anti-communist dissidents and anti-corruption whistleblowers."

    Ngo Dinh Diem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Its fair to say that Diems rule would have been capatalist and despotic as it always had been. Vietnam today is also capatalist and is also despotic. Not much difference.

  6. #136
    Sage
    apdst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bagdad, La.
    Last Seen
    Today @ 09:57 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    76,356

    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    Well according to wikipedia "Tortures and killings of "communist suspects" were committed on a daily basis. The death toll was put at around 50,000 with 75,000 imprisonments, and Diem's effort extended beyond communists to anti-communist dissidents and anti-corruption whistleblowers."

    Ngo Dinh Diem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Its fair to say that Diems rule would have been capatalist and despotic as it always had been. Vietnam today is also capatalist and is also despotic. Not much difference.
    I knew he killed off a bunch of Communists. I thought you were talking about the killing off of politicians, doctors, teachers and artists like what the Communists did. There's a big difference between what Diem did and what the Communists did.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  7. #137
    Libertarian socialist

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Staffs, England
    Last Seen
    12-01-17 @ 11:26 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    6,730

    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I knew he killed off a bunch of Communists. I thought you were talking about the killing off of politicians, doctors, teachers and artists like what the Communists did. There's a big difference between what Diem did and what the Communists did.
    Sure but the killings extended beyond "Communists" to those expressing legitimate dissent. [as the article explains] and the killing of random doctors and teachers was more of a Khmer Rouge thing. And like i say this needs to be put in perspective with the amount of people killed during the war
    Last edited by Red_Dave; 07-07-09 at 03:52 PM.

  8. #138
    Tavern Bartender
    Constitutionalist
    American's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Virginia
    Last Seen
    Today @ 04:19 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    76,277

    Re: Robert McNamara, ex-defense secretary, dies

    Quote Originally Posted by WillRockwell View Post
    I hope he goes to a place where the victims of his egotistical jingoism can have a word with him.
    Heaven?
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

  9. #139
    Tavern Bartender
    Constitutionalist
    American's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Virginia
    Last Seen
    Today @ 04:19 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    76,277

    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The Communists slaughtered millions of people after the US left Southeast Asia. It wasn't that Diem was worth defending, as much as it was that Communism was worth defeating.
    Are we having to argue Vietnam all over again? All because McNamara died.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

  10. #140
    Libertarian socialist

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Staffs, England
    Last Seen
    12-01-17 @ 11:26 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    6,730

    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Are we having to argue Vietnam all over again? All because McNamara died.
    McNamara seamed to think so

Page 14 of 17 FirstFirst ... 41213141516 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •