Page 13 of 17 FirstFirst ... 31112131415 ... LastLast
Results 121 to 130 of 169

Thread: Robert McNamara, ex-defense secretary, dies

  1. #121
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Ventura California
    Last Seen
    11-15-11 @ 11:17 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    8,706

    Re: McNamara dies

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I thought I had already mentioned that pint, but maybe not.
    I probably missed it while playing catch up. Sorry dude.

  2. #122
    Libertarian socialist

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Staffs, England
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 07:20 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    6,730

    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    Good history, however, the REAL reason Vietnam would be a losing strategy for the US in the long run was the FACT that we would not conduct an all out war to defeat the enemy for fear of expanding the war by engaging China as what happened in Korea.

    Had our troops been able to engage the enemy in their own territory and in neighboring nations where their supply routes were, we would have won that victory in short order. The occupation may have been another story.

    The bottom line is was a foolish effort that never had a chance of succeeding because we thought we could fight a "limited" engagement. "Limited" engagements only end in disaster and the loss of thousands of our young men and women.

    The main difference in the outcomes of Korea and Vietnam was the effort and will of the South Koreans to remain independent versus the lack of will on the part of the South Vietnamese.

    The lesson of all this was that by allowing the eventual collapse of the Government in South Vietnam, the end result was millions of other lives lost in the advancement of Communist regimes like the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia etc.
    What I dont see is how Diem was worth defending. By defending South Vietnam America was fighting for the preservation of a capitalist dictatorship. Last year vietnams mass games were sponcered by Nike and Mcdonalds among others so I wonder if the outcome would have been that different. Just seams like fighting a war between Coke and Pepsi to me.

  3. #123
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Ventura California
    Last Seen
    11-15-11 @ 11:17 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    8,706

    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    What I dont see is how Diem was worth defending. By defending South Vietnam America was fighting for the preservation of a capitalist dictatorship. Last year vietnams mass games were sponcered by Nike and Mcdonalds among others so I wonder if the outcome would have been that different. Just seams like fighting a war between Coke and Pepsi to me.
    Because Communist regimes were a worse alternative; in the aftermath of the Communist takeover of Vietnam and Cambodia, millions died.

    I am always amazed when people have issues with supporting Capitalist dictators but then have no qualms with Communist dictators.

  4. #124
    Libertarian socialist

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Staffs, England
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 07:20 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    6,730

    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    Because Communist regimes were a worse alternative; in the aftermath of the Communist takeover of Vietnam and Cambodia, millions died.

    I am always amazed when people have issues with supporting Capitalist dictators but then have no qualms with Communist dictators.
    Well ive never been a huge fan of the soviet bloc if thats what you mean, but captalist dictators were no better. Look at how many died during the dirty war operation Condor etc, not to mention how many Diem killed off. As regards Cambodia are you refering to Pol Pot or the North vietnamise invasion of Cambodia [which removed Pol Pot]?

    Still as regards vietnam i was talking more about the different outcomes. Todays outcome is that Vietnam is a state capatilist dictatorship, a similar outcome would have been brought about by Diem so why would it have been worth wasting so many more lives defending him?
    Last edited by Red_Dave; 07-07-09 at 01:42 PM.

  5. #125
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Ventura California
    Last Seen
    11-15-11 @ 11:17 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    8,706

    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    Well ive never been a huge fan of the soviet bloc if thats what you mean, but captalist dictators were no better. Look at how many died during the dirty war operation Condor etc, not to mention how many Diem killed off. As regards Cambodia are you refering to Pol Pot or the North vietnamise invasion of Cambodia [which removed Pol Pot]?

    Still as regards vietnam i was talking more about the different outcomes. Todays outcome is that Vietnam is a state capatilist dictatorship, a similar outcome would have been brought about by Diem so why would it have been worth wasting so many more lives defending him?
    I cannot defend the politics of the Vietnam War and why we got involved in the first place. I never agreed with it and when I was of draft age, even contemplated hiding out in Canada; my dilemma being that my father served there for a year and was a lifer in the Army. Vietnam was a pimple on China's ass as far as I was concerned.

    All I am saying is that I would rather prop up/support a Capitalist dictator over a Communist one if those are the ONLY choices which it was in many instances during the Cold War.

    It is very convenient to look back and second guess US actions abroad and in Latin America in the aftermath of the implosion of the Soviet Union. But during those years, there truly was an effort by the Soviet Union to dominate Europe, Asia, the Middle East and Latin America and an effort to support Communist thugs even if it meant through use of force.

    We see how well that worked for Cuba. So to look back now and re-think the policies is a moot issue; what is more important in my mind is the loss of credibility and perceptions of our weakness when we back down and do not honor our agreements with former allies and allow them to become overrun by Communist forces who have no compunction breaking all their agreements in order to promote their ideology and take over those who do not agree with it.

    I believe this contributes to the notions and perceptions of thugs like Bin Laden stating that all they need to do is kill enough of us and we will back down and results in attacks like 9-11. When terrorists, dictators, despots and communist thugs perceive you are weak, they will always attempt to take advantage of it.

    You would think that in the aftermath of a catastrophe of a global WWII we would have learned that lesson by now.

  6. #126
    Tavern Bartender
    Pussy Grabbin' Beaver
    Middleground's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Canada's Capital
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:44 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    22,455
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Robert McNamara, ex-defense secretary, dies

    Laila, et al, I high suggest watching "The Fog of War," the doc that was linked on page one of this thread. If some are going to argue Vietnam in this thread, wouldn't it be more on topic to address McNamara's perspective on the mistakes that he made? It's a very good and enlightening movie, so watch.

    **edited to add that the link is not the complete movie. If anyone can find it, please post it in this thread.
    Last edited by Middleground; 07-07-09 at 02:14 PM.
    No men are anywhere, and Im allowed to go in, because Im the owner of the pageant and therefore Im inspecting it, Trump said... Is everyone OK? You know, theyre standing there with no clothes. Is everybody OK? And you see these incredible looking women, and so I sort of get away with things like that.

  7. #127
    Libertarian socialist

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Staffs, England
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 07:20 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    6,730

    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    I cannot defend the politics of the Vietnam War and why we got involved in the first place. I never agreed with it and when I was of draft age, even contemplated hiding out in Canada; my dilemma being that my father served there for a year and was a lifer in the Army. Vietnam was a pimple on China's ass as far as I was concerned.

    All I am saying is that I would rather prop up/support a Capitalist dictator over a Communist one if those are the ONLY choices which it was in many instances during the Cold War.

    It is very convenient to look back and second guess US actions abroad and in Latin America in the aftermath of the implosion of the Soviet Union. But during those years, there truly was an effort by the Soviet Union to dominate Europe, Asia, the Middle East and Latin America and an effort to support Communist thugs even if it meant through use of force.

    We see how well that worked for Cuba. So to look back now and re-think the policies is a moot issue; what is more important in my mind is the loss of credibility and perceptions of our weakness when we back down and do not honor our agreements with former allies and allow them to become overrun by Communist forces who have no compunction breaking all their agreements in order to promote their ideology and take over those who do not agree with it.

    I believe this contributes to the notions and perceptions of thugs like Bin Laden stating that all they need to do is kill enough of us and we will back down and results in attacks like 9-11. When terrorists, dictators, despots and communist thugs perceive you are weak, they will always attempt to take advantage of it.

    You would think that in the aftermath of a catastrophe of a global WWII we would have learned that lesson by now.
    I would disbute that the Soviet Union ever wanted to take over the world. It was more concerned with maintaining hemogency over its borders then anything else. It gave aid to the Afgan monarchy and refused to assist in overthrowing the Shah of Iran [whom they even gave weapons/aid to at one stage] as they feared it would damage their entente with the West. The whole idea of exporting revolution across the world died with Lennin.

    As regards Robert McNamara the one thing you can say to his credit is that he showed a degree of repetance and recognition of how non-sensical much of the cold war was [and as Middleground said it his perspective shreads alot of light on the Vietnam war] Have a look at

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzKJ19P2jA0&feature=related"]YouTube - The For of War (Part 9)[/ame]
    Last edited by Red_Dave; 07-07-09 at 02:24 PM.

  8. #128
    Sage
    Laila's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Last Seen
    04-28-17 @ 01:48 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    10,095

    Re: Robert McNamara, ex-defense secretary, dies

    Will try and watch it as soon as i have some time


  9. #129
    Tavern Bartender
    Pussy Grabbin' Beaver
    Middleground's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Canada's Capital
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:44 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    22,455
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Robert McNamara, ex-defense secretary, dies

    BTW, here are R.S. McNamara's eleven life lessons, featured in the movie:

    1-Empathize with your enemy
    2-Rationality will not save us
    3-There's something beyond one's self
    4-Maximize efficiency
    5-Proportionality should be a guideline in war
    6-Get the data
    7-Belief and seeing are often both wrong
    8-Be prepared to reexamine your reasoning
    9-In order to do good, you may have to engage in evil
    10-Never say never
    11-You can't change human nature
    No men are anywhere, and Im allowed to go in, because Im the owner of the pageant and therefore Im inspecting it, Trump said... Is everyone OK? You know, theyre standing there with no clothes. Is everybody OK? And you see these incredible looking women, and so I sort of get away with things like that.

  10. #130
    Sage
    apdst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bagdad, La.
    Last Seen
    Today @ 09:17 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    76,445

    Re: McNamara dies

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    I probably missed it while playing catch up. Sorry dude.
    It's all good. Don't sweat it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

Page 13 of 17 FirstFirst ... 31112131415 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •