Page 12 of 17 FirstFirst ... 21011121314 ... LastLast
Results 111 to 120 of 169

Thread: Robert McNamara, ex-defense secretary, dies

  1. #111
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Ventura California
    Last Seen
    11-15-11 @ 11:17 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    8,706

    Re: McNamara dies

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    We won Vietnam?
    OMG, Tucker became a MOD???!!! Okay hell hath truly frozen over. Congrats dude!

    By the way, we did technically win in Vietnam by getting the North to sign a peace agreement. The problem was that they BROKE the agreement and Congress and the President following Nixon broke theirs to the South Vietnamese Government.

    And while I am on my soapbox, let's also remember that it was a war started by JFK, exacerbated and expanded by Johnson and finally ended by Nixon. Yet the Left prefers to vilify Nixon and place Kennedy on a pedestal.

    Carry on dude!

  2. #112
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Ventura California
    Last Seen
    11-15-11 @ 11:17 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    8,706

    Re: McNamara dies

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Because we didn't end the war as we should have.

    1) We didn't destroy the Communist forces.

    And,

    2) We didn't keep our word to support South Vietnam, should the North invade after US forces left the country.

    The South was able to fight off the NVA and was doing a good job, until they literally ran out of gas and ammo. Our promise to make sure that didn't happen wasn't kept. I believe, from the research I've done, that the ARVN could have been successful against the NVA, had we conducted massive airlifts of weapons, ammo, food and fuel.

    Instead, we did nothing, while The North took down South Vietnam, killing one million South Vietnamese civilians. Pol Pot was freed up to takeover Cambodia, killing a million+ and there were over 100 thousand Hmong tribesmen killed in Laos by the Communist forces there. Remember the whole, "Yellow Rain", thing in the late 70's? Yeah, that was the Pathet Lao Communists using mustard gas to wipe out the Hmong.

    To this day, the Hmong are still being murdered by the Communists in Laos and Vietnam.

    Laos, Vietnam Troops Slaughter Lao, Hmong: Over 6500 Face Death | Soldier of Fortune
    I do not question your history as you are fairly astute in it, but the REAL reason South Vietnam is Communist is that our Congress and President Ford did not keep their promise to the South Vietnamese to re-engage should the North Communists break the peace treaty they had signed; which no one was surprised they did.

    This lack of commitment is what brought us the eventuality of 9-11 and the efforts by terrorist thugs in the ME who CORRECTLY believe that Americans do not have the stomach or the will to fight an protracted engagement and suffer losses.

    This is why as a Conservative, I will no longer support placing the men and women of our military at risk for ANY reason OTHER than defending our nation on our own ground. The American people do not deserve or have earned that sacrifice.

    The trashing of Bush was a testimony to this.

  3. #113
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Ventura California
    Last Seen
    11-15-11 @ 11:17 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    8,706

    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by Sturmrabe View Post
    If I had any hope of getting a real debate out of this I would, and if it was on ANY other topic I might entertain it anyway even without that hope for the sake of a good argument, but I simply cannot wrap my mind around how you can take that stance.

    Really, just the thought that someone could sincerely hold that postition, I don't even know where to begin!

    Have you seen the footage of the US evacuation?
    I can KINDA see what you are getting at with they whole "they signed a peace treaty then violated" thing... but seriously, that was a fumbling attempt for the US to save face in front of an all out retreat/evacuation as a prelude to complete occupation by the north.
    That "footage" you saw was not the US running from Communists. We had already FORCED the North Vietnamese to the peace treaty table and had an agreement.

    They broke that agreement a year later and our Congress and President Ford refused to honor our part of the agreement and allowed the collapse of South Vietnam. That footage you refer to was our evacuation efforts to remove EMBASSY personnel; NOT of our defeat and retreat.

  4. #114
    Matthew 16:3

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Everywhere and nowhere
    Last Seen
    06-24-17 @ 05:05 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    45,603

    Re: McNamara dies

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    OMG, Tucker became a MOD???!!! Okay hell hath truly frozen over. Congrats dude!
    Thanks.

    By the way, we did technically win in Vietnam by getting the North to sign a peace agreement. The problem was that they BROKE the agreement and Congress and the President following Nixon broke theirs to the South Vietnamese Government.
    I would say that this means we should have won the war, but snatched "defeat from the jaws of victory" as they say.

    We could have won, we should have won, but we ended up losing because the goal wasn't achieved.


    Now, I don't particularly think Vietnam was ever a good idea. It cost many US lives for little potential gain. Gain that was never achieved.

    But, admittedly, that's me looking back at it from the perspective off someone who wasn't even alive at any point during the war and knowing the final results, so that opinion should be taken as fairly useless and irrelevant. I could not say I wouldn't have supported the war if I had been around in 1964 without the benefit of hindsight.

    I'm just saying that we could have won, and should have won, does not really mean we won. In truth, we lost because those lives were lost for nothing.

    This is actually why once we entered the Iraq war, even though I initially opposed the war, I was in favor of seeing it through to the end. Once the decision is made to enter into a military engagement, I think that an obligation is made to see it through to the end. I did not want another Vietnam in Iraq because I don't feel our troops lives should be wasted by discarding the objective midstream, even if I disagreed with that objective initially.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

  5. #115
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Ventura California
    Last Seen
    11-15-11 @ 11:17 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    8,706

    Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    Vietnam was already lost in 1954, long before the war went hot. Vietnam had fought off the Japanese in 1945 and were ready to become independent, and then the French decided they wanted to recolonize the area. America sold out is values and backed French imperialism over its own democratic ideals. Then in 1954 after the French got stomped, we then decided to back a horrible dictator like Diem.

    Ho Chi Mihn was a nationalist, and had no idealist embracing of communism. He even came to the U.S. in 1919 and asked Wilson to push for the freedom of his country. We made him an enemy by constantly supporting colonialism. He went to the communists because they would support him when we would not.

    By 63, the odds were horribly stacked against the U.S. The government in Saigon was utterly unable to stand on its own. Even if we had won a military victory, it would not have been enough. Even a defeated NVA army would have been enough to smash the ARVN forces if we left. Unless we wanted to stay forever, south Vietnam was going to fall.
    Good history, however, the REAL reason Vietnam would be a losing strategy for the US in the long run was the FACT that we would not conduct an all out war to defeat the enemy for fear of expanding the war by engaging China as what happened in Korea.

    Had our troops been able to engage the enemy in their own territory and in neighboring nations where their supply routes were, we would have won that victory in short order. The occupation may have been another story.

    The bottom line is was a foolish effort that never had a chance of succeeding because we thought we could fight a "limited" engagement. "Limited" engagements only end in disaster and the loss of thousands of our young men and women.

    The main difference in the outcomes of Korea and Vietnam was the effort and will of the South Koreans to remain independent versus the lack of will on the part of the South Vietnamese.

    The lesson of all this was that by allowing the eventual collapse of the Government in South Vietnam, the end result was millions of other lives lost in the advancement of Communist regimes like the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia etc.

  6. #116
    Sage
    apdst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bagdad, La.
    Last Seen
    Today @ 10:44 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    76,219

    Re: McNamara dies

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    I do not question your history as you are fairly astute in it, but the REAL reason South Vietnam is Communist is that our Congress and President Ford did not keep their promise to the South Vietnamese to re-engage should the North Communists break the peace treaty they had signed; which no one was surprised they did.
    I thought I had already mentioned that pint, but maybe not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  7. #117
    Matthew 16:3

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Everywhere and nowhere
    Last Seen
    06-24-17 @ 05:05 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    45,603

    Re: McNamara dies

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I thought I had already mentioned that pint, but maybe not.
    No, you did.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

  8. #118
    Sage
    apdst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bagdad, La.
    Last Seen
    Today @ 10:44 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    76,219

    Re: McNamara dies

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    No, you did.
    The pint, or the point?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  9. #119
    Matthew 16:3

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Everywhere and nowhere
    Last Seen
    06-24-17 @ 05:05 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    45,603

    Re: McNamara dies

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The pint, or the point?
    I must be totally illiterate because I missed that entirely.

    Both.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

  10. #120
    Sage

    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Last Seen
    09-24-17 @ 04:38 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    29,261

    Re: McNamara dies

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The pint, or the point?
    I'll take a pint

    Never mind the point

Page 12 of 17 FirstFirst ... 21011121314 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •