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Thread: Saddam: 'I Lied About WMD In Fear Of Iran'

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    Re: Saddam: 'I Lied About WMD In Fear Of Iran'

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post
    I never said I would wait for 100% certitude. The UN and others asserted that Iraq posed no threat.
    Interesting statement, given the multitude of UNSC resolutions to the contrary, stating that Iraq was a threat to the security of the region.

    Recall, too, that no one questioned the threat that was Iraq until it was clear that GWB was of a mind to actually do something about ut.

    We had outdated intel that said otherwise.
    Seems to me we had solid, positive intel regarding the existence of both WMDs and WMD programs in 1998, which was the justification for the 3-day war we waged against Iraq in december of that year.

    If we knew they were there then, and Iraq failed to prove that they had been destroyed/dismantled -- what conclusion can you reach other than they are still there (and that there is a concerted effort to hide them)?

    Why is it impossible to make sure that your intel is good before invading and occupying another country.
    Define "good". Does 19:1 qualify?
    If not, why not?

    Do we know that Iran has nuclear aspirations? Yes.
    Do we know they support terror? Yes.
    Have we invaded as we did Iraq? No.
    Non sequitur? Relevance?
    Last edited by Goobieman; 07-06-09 at 04:49 PM.

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    Re: Saddam: 'I Lied About WMD In Fear Of Iran'

    [quote]
    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Interesting statement, given the multitude of UNSC resolutions to the contrary, stating that Iraq was a threat to the security of the region.
    I can find no such resolutions. Only failure to comply with weapon inspections, as we have now seen was in effort to keep Iran in check.

    Recall, too, that no one questioned the threat that was Iraq until it was clear that GWB was of a mind to actually do something about ut.
    No one felt that the region should be thrown into turmoil to simply remove Saadam, when the nation was under a total embargo.


    Seems to me we had solid, positive intel regarding the existence of both WMDs and WMD programs in 1998, which was the justification for the 3-day war we waged against Iraq in december of that year.
    That was over failure to allow weapons inspectors in.

    If we knew they were there then, and Iraq failed to prove that they had been destroyed/dismantled -- what conclusion can you reach other than they are still there (and that there is a concerted effort to hide them)?
    Have you missed the point of the thread? Saadam wanted Iran to think he still had weapons.


    Define "good". Does 19:1 qualify?
    If not, why not?
    Sure, 19-1 are good. But when I presented these 19-1 and my Secretary of State said he did no think the intel was good, and a diplomat went to Africa and found no evidence of certain charges, and the head of the CIA speaks out only to be put back into place by my VP, then the 19-1 starts to look more 50/50.


    Non sequitur? Relevance?
    You asserted that with what Bush had and the geopolitical situation, he was right and should have done as he had. Iran poses the exact same scenario with greater intel certainty, yet Bush did not act. Why? If your theory of preemptive action is correct, then we must immediately attack Iran and North Korea as they are more dire threats than Iraq could have ever been.

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    Re: Saddam: 'I Lied About WMD In Fear Of Iran'

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post
    I can find no such resolutions. Only failure to comply with weapon inspections, as we have now seen was in effort to keep Iran in check.
    UNSCR 1441:
    “Recognizing the threat Iraq's non-compliance with Council resolutions and proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and long-range missiles poses to international peace and security"

    No one felt that the region should be thrown into turmoil to simply remove Saadam, when the nation was under a total embargo.
    Your response concedes the point that no one questioned the threat that was Iraq. Thank you.

    That was over failure to allow weapons inspectors in.
    WJBC described the attacks that he orderd were on Iraqi WMD weapoms and weapons development facilities:
    ...on the unanimous recommendation of my national security team -- including the vice president, the secretary of defense, the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, the secretary of state and the national security adviser -- I have ordered a strong, sustained series of air strikes against Iraq.

    They are designed to degrade Saddam's capacity to develop and deliver weapons of mass destruction, and to degrade his ability to threaten his neighbors.
    How do you attack these targets if you do not know they exist, and where they are?
    Further, who questioned the information that Iraq did indeed have WMDs and WMD programs in december 1998?

    Have you missed the point of the thread? Saadam wanted Iran to think he still had weapons.
    Yes... and so, he had an active campaign in place to make people think he had WMDs. Seems likely then that the conclusion that he had them was natural, obvious, and supported by the information at hand.

    To ignore this information on the grounds that it was MISinformation would necessitate holding the belief that, even though GWB had a quarter million men on his border and is more than ready to set them loose, Saddam -deliberately- make GWB think that he had the very things that GWB was about to invade Iraq for.

    Sure, 19-1 are good. But when I presented these 19-1 and my Secretary of State said he did no think the intel was good, and a diplomat went to Africa and found no evidence of certain charges, and the head of the CIA speaks out only to be put back into place by my VP, then the 19-1 starts to look more 50/50.
    As I said:
    Citing the two or three things those inflicted by BDS like to hang their hats on does nothing but illustrate a failure to understand this.

    You asserted that with what Bush had and the geopolitical situation, he was right and should have done as he had. Iran poses the exact same scenario with greater intel certainty, yet Bush did not act. Why?
    Whatever the answer, its irrelevant to my point.
    MY point is that when dealing with things like this, you never have 100% of the information, and so ALWAYS must act on the perponderance of the evidence.

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    Re: Saddam: 'I Lied About WMD In Fear Of Iran'

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    UNSCR 1441:
    Your response concedes the point that no one questioned the threat that was Iraq. Thank you.
    No, my answer is that as Iraq was under a complete embargo, they were no threat.


    WJBC described the attacks that he orderd were on Iraqi WMD weapoms and weapons development facilities:

    How do you attack these targets if you do not know they exist, and where they are?
    Further, who questioned the information that Iraq did indeed have WMDs and WMD programs in december 1998?
    They knew that old sites existed in which the weapons they used against Iran were housed. As did they have exiled Iraqi informants, the same that were proven incorrect.


    Yes... and so, he had an active campaign in place to make people think he had WMDs. Seems likely then that the conclusion that he had them was natural, obvious, and supported by the information at hand.

    To ignore this information on the grounds that it was MISinformation would necessitate holding the belief that, even though GWB had a quarter million men on his border and is more than ready to set them loose, Saddam -deliberately- make GWB think that he had the very things that GWB was about to invade Iraq for.
    I am saying it was knowingly questionable, and the administration was told as much. It has been long known that both Rumsfield and Cheney wanted an Iraq invasion prior to 9/11.


    Whatever the answer, its irrelevant to my point.
    MY point is that when dealing with things like this, you never have 100% of the information, and so ALWAYS must act on the perponderance of the evidence.
    How is this irrelevant? Is it because we cannot easily beat-up on these other nations? Or is it that we have learned from Iraq?

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    Re: Saddam: 'I Lied About WMD In Fear Of Iran'

    Ultimately, I think the disagreement between you and I is over pre-emptive war policy. Which not even war-loving Realists are against. John Mearsheimer himself felt that the evidence for pre-emptive war in Iraq was not strong enough for the cost versus reward factor. The U.S. went in and in doing so has left a potential chaotic nation that may, if it does not survive as a democracy, throw the whole region into turmoil, and create new niches for groups such as the Taliban and Al Qaeda.

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    Re: Saddam: 'I Lied About WMD In Fear Of Iran'

    Mean while back on the Ranch the rest of us are tired of this discussion because it get's no where and most if you had never step in one foot into to Iraq prior to 2003.

    But I will agree with one thing till we the folks who were their on the ground are free of certain rule's and regulations and most of the UN Security reports will be declass starting in 2015 unless Russia and China but a hold on them(Hmmm Wonder Why they would want that to happen). That is when you will see allot of REAl TRUTHS start come out about Iraq and their WMD programs and their rebuilding of their Military till then it's going to be the same no your wrong no you don't know what your talking about shut the **** up yes I do no you don't prove it Bull**** discussion's.

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    Re: Saddam: 'I Lied About WMD In Fear Of Iran'

    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion89 View Post
    Mean while back on the Ranch the rest of us are tired of this discussion because it get's no where and most if you had never step in one foot into to Iraq prior to 2003.

    But I will agree with one thing till we the folks who were their on the ground are free of certain rule's and regulations and most of the UN Security reports will be declass starting in 2015 unless Russia and China but a hold on them(Hmmm Wonder Why they would want that to happen). That is when you will see allot of REAl TRUTHS start come out about Iraq and their WMD programs and their rebuilding of their Military till then it's going to be the same no your wrong no you don't know what your talking about shut the **** up yes I do no you don't prove it Bull**** discussion's.
    Take it easy man. You should hit the Tikki and have a drink. Oh, again let me know when your book will be published.

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    Re: Saddam: 'I Lied About WMD In Fear Of Iran'

    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion89 View Post
    Mean while back on the Ranch the rest of us are tired of this discussion because it get's no where and most if you had never step in one foot into to Iraq prior to 2003.

    But I will agree with one thing till we the folks who were their on the ground are free of certain rule's and regulations and most of the UN Security reports will be declass starting in 2015 unless Russia and China but a hold on them(Hmmm Wonder Why they would want that to happen). That is when you will see allot of REAl TRUTHS start come out about Iraq and their WMD programs and their rebuilding of their Military till then it's going to be the same no your wrong no you don't know what your talking about shut the **** up yes I do no you don't prove it Bull**** discussion's.
    Oh, so we should wait till after Cheney's dead and buried to even discuss the topic. I see. Boy, he's got his hand up your ass but good.

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    Re: Saddam: 'I Lied About WMD In Fear Of Iran'

    Quote Originally Posted by WillRockwell View Post
    Oh, so we should wait till after Cheney's dead and buried to even discuss the topic. I see. Boy, he's got his hand up your ass but good.
    What part didn't you read huh please go back and read what I said about the UN Classifed Reports I said nothing of Mr. Cheney nor would I since I didn't report to him and never had to write any reports for the VP of the United States, I'm sure he might have read one or two of the reports that I with allot of other folks help write but once again you decide to bring in someone who isn't even part of the discussion way to go Will typical of you ell at least you consistent I'll give you that.

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    Re: Saddam: 'I Lied About WMD In Fear Of Iran'

    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion89 View Post
    What part didn't you read huh please go back and read what I said about the UN Classifed Reports I said nothing of Mr. Cheney nor would I since I didn't report to him and never had to write any reports for the VP of the United States, I'm sure he might have read one or two of the reports that I with allot of other folks help write but once again you decide to bring in someone who isn't even part of the discussion way to go Will typical of you ell at least you consistent I'll give you that.
    OMG you are hilarious, is there anything you don't take credit for?

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