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Thread: Part of railway to be nationalized

  1. #31
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    Re: Part of railway to be nationalized

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    Im not sure how the cost compare [nor do i know which european system is the most succesful] but although these companies arent running at a loss like the nationalised system they still swallow up quite alot of subsidy money. Which is odd as ticket prices are rising rapidly, so we,re paying them to charge us more
    Thatcher subsidized those private companies? Well that's a joke, I thought it was a real private company experiment.

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  2. #32
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    Re: Part of railway to be nationalized

    Quote Originally Posted by Slainte View Post
    Why not privatise roads and the army while we're at it? I'm sure they would become faster and cheaper too!
    They have. Although I don't really trust private armies (the US does use Blackwater though).

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  3. #33
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    Re: Part of railway to be nationalized

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    They have. Although I don't really trust private armies (the US does use Blackwater though).
    Private defense contractors are not "the army" and in Britain at least roads are still owned by the public!
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  4. #34
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    Re: Part of railway to be nationalized

    Quote Originally Posted by Slainte View Post
    Private defense contractors are not "the army" and in Britain at least roads are still owned by the public!
    No, but they're the closest thing we have to a private army.

    In the US there are some private roads. The most notable example is in DC, but there is so much government intrusion into it that it's not a fair example.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  5. #35
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    Re: Part of railway to be nationalized

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    I see you dont know a lot about the US transportation industry.

    The veracity of your claim depends entirely on the cities. Cleveland to Pittsburg, truckload is cheaper. Cleveland to LA, rail is cheaper. The breaking point is about 1100 miles, and presumes that rail service is available.

    Oh, and water transportation is the cheapest way to go, assuming that the cities in question have ports. $6/ton will get you a 2.5 day trip from from Superior WI to Detroit MI, rate untouchable by any other mode of transportaion.
    There is no big difference between the US and European transport industry. They both transport tons of goods by rail, water, air and road every day of the year. The biggest difference is the US reliance (relatively speaking) on trucks compared to Europe, even on long hauls. In Europe in the 1960s and 1970s countries independent of each other (at first) made it policy to put as much good transport as possible over medium and long distances on rail and river/sea. During the 1980s and onwards a more centralized strategy was put in place little by little and investments made so that we had a mass transportation system for goods in Europe that went on rail, and trucks took it from hubs to their final destination. That is pretty much how it works today.

    And the main thing here is that Europe invested in rail, where as the US invested in.. nothing. Now that inaction is coming home to roost with higher oil prices.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Part of railway to be nationalized

    Quote Originally Posted by WillRockwell View Post
    Which European country has the most successful railway system?
    Depends on how you categorise "successful".

    Most state owned rail companies (100% owned) are non profit so..

    Then there are the state owned "semi private" companies like SNCF in France that generate a profit. Last one I heard was over a billion euros... that is 1.4 billion dollars.

    As for passenger numbers.. another measure. I seriously dont know, but since the 150 dollar oil, rail travel has become more and more popular. Plus there are different types of rail travel... local (metro/subway), to regional and country wide.. very different kettle of fish so to say when it comes into determine the "success" rate.

    For example, while the semi local and regional trains in the UK are pathetic, the London Underground has been named the best in the world for a number of years plus has passenger growth.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Part of railway to be nationalized

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    There is no big difference between the US and European transport industry.
    What about high-speed rail?

    And the main thing here is that Europe invested in rail, where as the US invested in.. nothing. Now that inaction is coming home to roost with higher oil prices.
    I'd assume we'd have more rail if we developed more densely and had more roads. I think the problem may have been government intrusion in planning our cities, not the lack of it.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  8. #38
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    Re: Part of railway to be nationalized

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    What about high-speed rail?
    By transport I mean of goods. But yes, high speed rail is a huge difference between the US and Europe when it comes to transportation of people.

    I'd assume we'd have more rail if we developed more densely and had more roads. I think the problem may have been government intrusion in planning our cities, not the lack of it.
    And what would have instead of government city planning?

    The American problem is it is a car nut nation pure and simple and people are in many ways lazy. The biggest opstical for rail way and especially high speed railway in the US, is not money, not the lame geographical excuse the right constantly uses, but the mindset of Americans in general.
    PeteEU

  9. #39
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    Re: Part of railway to be nationalized

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    And what would have instead of government city planning?
    We would have a denser city form. I believe I don't have to explain the benefits of that to you.

    The American problem is it is a car nut nation pure and simple and people are in many ways lazy. The biggest opstical for rail way and especially high speed railway in the US, is not money, not the lame geographical excuse the right constantly uses, but the mindset of Americans in general.
    There may be a mindset, but I believe that it was induced by the federal and state governments. They have encouraged suburban land use and through that emphasized auto transportation while giving the shove to rail (its position was weakened via the subsidization of the auto industry). Now you may say, the auto industry in this country is not subsidized. Technically, you'd be right, but I'm arguing that the auto industry is indirectly subsidized through freeways and a gas tax that is too low to pay for all of the roads, monetary aid to homeowners, free parking, and minimum parking requirements. However, even if we did not have any parking subsidies, home ownership subsidies, or if the gas tax was high enough, it would still be subsidized. When we take rail, we see the cost of our trip before we go. We will know exactly how much it costs through the ticket we pay. With a gas tax, this is not so. We don't know which roads are cheaper and which are more expensive because the cost is blurred via that gas tax.

    I argue that the only way for us to know the real cost of driving is if we get tolls on our roads and take away all other subsidies of suburbanization. There still may be a desire for suburbia among the American populace, but once people started seeing the real cost of this way of life, then I think the demand would be much, much lower.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  10. #40
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    Re: Part of railway to be nationalized

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    There is no big difference between the US and European transport industry. They both transport tons of goods by rail, water, air and road every day of the year. The biggest difference is the US reliance (relatively speaking) on trucks compared to Europe, even on long hauls. In Europe in the 1960s and 1970s countries independent of each other (at first) made it policy to put as much good transport as possible over medium and long distances on rail and river/sea. During the 1980s and onwards a more centralized strategy was put in place little by little and investments made so that we had a mass transportation system for goods in Europe that went on rail, and trucks took it from hubs to their final destination. That is pretty much how it works today.

    And the main thing here is that Europe invested in rail, where as the US invested in.. nothing. Now that inaction is coming home to roost with higher oil prices.
    Pete you can't make a fair comparison between the U.S. and Europe.

    The overall landmass of the U.S. is larger than what the EU countries compromise.
    Even then you have to account for the fact that Europe has been in development centuries before the U.S.

    We have rail but to expand it to compromise all major U.S. cities would be a monolithic, ungodly expensive project that would take a huge amount of time.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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