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Thread: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    That's the only argument that you have.
    Actually, I've got all the arguments.

    My best argument is that gays have successfully been included in foreign militarys with none of the detrimental results predicted by many in our own services. That alone should be sufficient evidence.

    But if it weren't, there's the evidence that gays have been integrated into police units, firehouses, S.W.A.T. teams, the FBI, the CIA, top positions in corporate America, and in all levels of government. We teach in the schools, perform brain surgery (yes, I really know a gay brain surgeon), and we do just about every other job imaginable with little or no difficulty getting along with others.

    The facts and the evidence are all on my side.

    Your argument is based on consensus. That's no argument at all.

    Last edited by Grateful Heart; 07-15-09 at 10:23 PM.

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by Grateful Heart View Post
    Actually, I've got all the arguments.

    My best argument is that gays have successfully been included in foreign militarys with none of the detrimental results predicted by many in our own services. That alone should be sufficient evidence.

    Because of DADT. When DADT is abolished, it's going to be a different story.

    What if you're wrong and people die because of your bad idea? Would it still be worth it? I don't care how many gay brain surgeons you know. That's irrellevant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    What if you're wrong and people die because of your bad idea? Would it still be worth it? I don't care how many gay brain surgeons you know. That's irrellevant.
    Your whole argument is based on "WHAT-IFS".

    The facts are gays ARE serving, gays HAVE served. Those aren't WHAT-IFS, those are FACTS.

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    Your whole argument is based on "WHAT-IFS".

    The facts are gays ARE serving, gays HAVE served. Those aren't WHAT-IFS, those are FACTS.

    It ain't broke, so you wanna fix it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    What if you're wrong and people die because of your bad idea? Would it still be worth it? I don't care how many gay brain surgeons you know. That's irrellevant.
    Well, if that brain surgeon happened to be wearing a uniform and operating on a severe head wound sustained in combat, it would not be irrelevant, would it.

    That aside, how many people have died because the British military allows gays to serve? How many Israeli or Australian soldiers have died because they allow gays to serve?

    Got some numbers?


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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    It ain't broke, so you wanna fix it?
    We've heard that before...




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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by Grateful Heart View Post
    Well, if that brain surgeon happened to be wearing a uniform and operating on a severe head wound sustained in combat, it would not be irrelevant, would it.

    Well, it would relevant, because a ****in' brain surgeon isn't going to be in a forward unit. But, hey, it ain't you life on the line. Right?


    That aside, how many people have died because the British military allows gays to serve? How many Israeli or Australian soldiers have died because they allow gays to serve?
    The Wermacht during WW2 allowed gays to serve in the ranks, as did the Shutzstauffel. How did it turn out for them? How many German soldiers died during WW2? There's ya numbers for ya.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by Grateful Heart View Post
    We've heard that before...



    You Libbos can't make an argument without playing the race card. Can you? How pathetic! What would you all do if there were no blacks in this country? You would be screwed, blued and tattoed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    You Libbos can't make an argument without playing the race card. Can you? How pathetic! What would you all do if there were no blacks in this country? You would be screwed, blued and tattoed.
    a. I've voted Republican in every presidential race since I turned 18.

    b. Bigotry against gays is no different than bigotry against a race, religion, or ethnic group. George Wallace stood up for the 'consensus' opinion of his era. An opinion that has proved utterly wrong-headed over time. Your anti-gay position is based on nothing more than 'consensus,' just like Wallace's.

    c. I'm baffled by your question about German war casualties. Perhaps you can tell me, how many German's died in WWII because gays served in the German army?


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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Apdst, you have defended your position in this entire thread (and others). There was a time when I shared many of the same opinions that you now have, but that was then and this is now. Allowing gays to serve openly in the military today would not have the same negative impact that it had 20 or more years ago. Society has changed (and not all for the better I might add), and gays are far more openly accepted than they used to be. Are there homophobes out there still? Sure there are. But there are racists as well (many of them serving) and there isn't a problem with blacks serving in the military. There was a time when there would have been problems (and there were at first) with black serving alongside whites, but as society moved passed that, it became less and less of an issue.

    I have a friend in Kansas City who is gay. He and I used to go play poker together, we'd watch football together and he seemed like your average ordinary heterosexual guy. Then one day in the break room at work, he said something about a guy on television being hot and I couldn't believe what I just heard. I knew this man for at least 6 months before I knew he was gay. When I found out, I was shocked at first, but it didn't affect my friendship with him one bit. He never "checked me out", and he never discussed his sexuality openly. He was a good friend, a great co-worker and the fact that he was gay made no difference to me whatsoever. If this had happened 20 years ago, I probably would have reacted differently, only to realize later on that it made no difference whatsoever. I guess my point is that there's nothing to be afraid of regarding gays in the military. Some of the hardest working people I've come across in my lifetime are gay men. Now I'm not saying that gay men are harder workers than straight men, but they tend to be more "detail oriented" than the average man. And when you are in combat and under fire, I want the detail oriented guy watching my back.

    DADT isn't a horrible policy, but I do think it's unnecessary at this point in our history. If someone has a problem serving with a gay man (or woman for that matter - don't want to leave out the ladies), then they have bigger problems that they need to address. You can cite all the statistics you want to and cite all the polls you want to, but they all have historical context too, and that needs to be taken into consideration. I respect your opinion, but I also disagree with it in today's society and age.

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