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Thread: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by EgoffTib View Post
    It would appear so. Do you think being gay is a choice? If so, when did you choose to be straight and why would anyone choose to be gay?
    That logic is beyond flawed. No, I didn't "choose" to be straight. You think that just because one sexual orientation is natural that the other must be as well?

    How about pedophiles? When did they choose to like kids? And if it is something that they don't choose(which many believe this is the case), shouldn't they have equal rights?

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    And you know this factually, how?




    I think you are speculating.
    I'll try to find the interview after while (a quick Google search didn't bring it up). But the CEO of Blackwater was asked this a couple years ago, and specifically said that they don't discriminate against gays in their security units.
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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by G.I. Joe View Post
    That logic is beyond flawed. No, I didn't "choose" to be straight. You think that just because one sexual orientation is natural that the other must be as well?
    Then why would anyone choose to be gay? And when did "natural" become the same as "morally right" anyway? Wearing clothes isn't natural.

    Quote Originally Posted by G.I. Joe
    How about pedophiles? When did they choose to like kids? And if it is something that they don't choose(which many believe this is the case), shouldn't they have equal rights?
    As long as they obey the law, yes, of course they should have equal rights.
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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Then why would anyone choose to be gay? And when did "natural" become the same as "morally right" anyway? Wearing clothes isn't natural.



    As long as they obey the law, yes, of course they should have equal rights.
    ROFLMAO...............Molesting kids isn't against the law? You're a special kind of dude.

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    That's where I believe the whole school of thought goes awry. It is automatically assumed that the problem is going to be with straight male soldiers in close proximity with gay male soldiers. What's going to happen when a gay soldier wants seclusion from his/her straight comrades? Or, when straight females refuse to share billets and latrines with gay female soldiers? Don't say it can't happen, because it's far from a impossibility.
    You end up with the same issues that exist with providing privacy for all soldiers. You don't have to be gay or homophobic to desire privacy. When it is possible, the military does its best to provide this. When it is not, this goes in the suck it up category. Sometimes, you are asked to go without sleep for days at a time, wear dirty clothes, kill people, and watch your friends die. If this "suck it up" concept is confusing to you, there is a VFW chapter near you and I am sure they will be happy to help.

    When shower facilities are limited, accommodating female and male soldiers cause issues. Sometimes this is dealt with with shower schedules. Some small outposts do not have adequate facilities and female soldiers are just not posted there. These are practical solutions to practical problems.

    I think you miss the point of inclusion in the military;

    Rome did not offer slaves a route to citizenship through military service because they respected their rights - they needed the bodies. The racist old boys club of the American military caste did not include black soldiers because they liked them - they did this because they needed the bodies. Israel does not have women serve in combat roles because they want to see their daughters killed - they do this because they need the bodies.

    Last I checked, homosexuals made up somewhere between 10% and 30% of the population, depending on who you listen to. From my own experience, I would say they make up a much larger portion of the females in the military then either of those numbers.

    I also think you miss the point of regulatory inclusion;

    No law nor amount of homophobia has ever kept gays out of the military. Given that this is a fact, policy must be set based on creating the most functional military we can have. This is no different then any other form of prejudice - ethnic, racial, religious, etc...

    Serving your country is not something where you get to pick teams. Prejudice and tension will always exist in any military called from a diverse nation. It is one of the few times in your life that you be will asked to set aside your differences and serve the common good. Doing this is part of what it takes to be a solider.


    Personally, I would be offended if being gay was a reason to avoid military service - if you expect to be reap the rewards of living in this country, I expect you to pay the same price for that privilege.

    That anyone, be they gay or straight or purple or made of jello or whatever, would choose to serve deserves respect. If you have not made the same sacrifice, your ground to judge is shaky.

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by G.I. Joe View Post
    ROFLMAO...............Molesting kids isn't against the law? You're a special kind of dude.
    You didn't say child molester (a crime). You said pedophile, and you specifically used it in the sense of a sexual orientation. So yes, if they're a pedophile and they aren't molesting kids or breaking any other laws, of course they're entitled to equal rights.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 07-13-09 at 06:35 PM.
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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by G.I. Joe View Post
    ROFLMAO...............Molesting kids isn't against the law? You're a special kind of dude.
    Errrr... Ummm he said as long as "they obey the law" he said nothing about molesting any kids.
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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by Sneam View Post
    You end up with the same issues that exist with providing privacy for all soldiers. You don't have to be gay or homophobic to desire privacy. When it is possible, the military does its best to provide this. When it is not, this goes in the suck it up category. Sometimes, you are asked to go without sleep for days at a time, wear dirty clothes, kill people, and watch your friends die. If this "suck it up" concept is confusing to you, there is a VFW chapter near you and I am sure they will be happy to help.

    When shower facilities are limited, accommodating female and male soldiers cause issues. Sometimes this is dealt with with shower schedules. Some small outposts do not have adequate facilities and female soldiers are just not posted there. These are practical solutions to practical problems.

    I think you miss the point of inclusion in the military;

    Rome did not offer slaves a route to citizenship through military service because they respected their rights - they needed the bodies. The racist old boys club of the American military caste did not include black soldiers because they liked them - they did this because they needed the bodies. Israel does not have women serve in combat roles because they want to see their daughters killed - they do this because they need the bodies.

    Last I checked, homosexuals made up somewhere between 10% and 30% of the population, depending on who you listen to. From my own experience, I would say they make up a much larger portion of the females in the military then either of those numbers.

    I also think you miss the point of regulatory inclusion;

    No law nor amount of homophobia has ever kept gays out of the military. Given that this is a fact, policy must be set based on creating the most functional military we can have. This is no different then any other form of prejudice - ethnic, racial, religious, etc...

    Serving your country is not something where you get to pick teams. Prejudice and tension will always exist in any military called from a diverse nation. It is one of the few times in your life that you be will asked to set aside your differences and serve the common good. Doing this is part of what it takes to be a solider.


    Personally, I would be offended if being gay was a reason to avoid military service - if you expect to be reap the rewards of living in this country, I expect you to pay the same price for that privilege.
    You wouldn't tell a female to, "suck it up", if she refused to shower with male soldiers. My point is, it's going to cause complications when straight soldiers refuse to shower with gay soldiers and vice-versa. I mean, what are you going to do? Physically force soldiers to shower with each other in those situations? Good luck with unit morale after that.

    That anyone, be they gay or straight or purple or made of jello or whatever, would choose to serve deserves respect. If you have not made the same sacrifice, your ground to judge is shaky.
    I spent 13 years as an infantryman, so I'm standing on solid rock when I compare the abolition of DADT to current DoD and DA policies. I opposed the abolition of DADT on the same grounds that I oppose females serving in combat arms units and co-ed units. It could cause--and has--a break down in discipline, thereby causing a unit to lose some of it's combat power. Are you familiar with the elements of combat power?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    You wouldn't tell a female to, "suck it up", if she refused to shower with male soldiers. My point is, it's going to cause complications when straight soldiers refuse to shower with gay soldiers and vice-versa. I mean, what are you going to do? Physically force soldiers to shower with each other in those situations? Good luck with unit morale after that.
    Soldiers are trained to kill if necessary, and are placed in war zones where they could die. If their biggest complaint is their shower partners, they need to grow the **** up. If they refuse to shower with gay soldiers? Warn or punish them on the first offense, then dishonorably discharge them for insubordination if the problem continues.

    A dude checking out your junk in the shower is NOT a good enough reason for banning gays from serving openly. Try again.

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst
    I spent 13 years as an infantryman, so I'm standing on solid rock when I compare the abolition of DADT to current DoD and DA policies. I opposed the abolition of DADT on the same grounds that I oppose females serving in combat arms units and co-ed units. It could cause--and has--a break down in discipline, thereby causing a unit to lose some of it's combat power. Are you familiar with the elements of combat power?
    Gays are still serving in the military, they just aren't serving OPENLY. So how exactly will it cause a breakdown in discipline? What purpose is served by keeping their homosexuality a secret?
    Last edited by Kandahar; 07-13-09 at 07:06 PM.
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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Soldiers are trained to kill if necessary, and are placed in war zones where they could die. If their biggest complaint is their shower partners, they need to grow the **** up. If they refuse to shower with gay soldiers? Warn or punish them on the first offense, then dishonorably discharge them for insubordination if the problem continues.
    Your ignorance of how the military works is overflowing. Ya see, regardless of how many times we hear the old, "the army isn't a democracy", BS the fact is that soldiers have rights. A females soldier has the right to not have to be nekkid in the same room with male soldiers. If you were a leader in the military and you hit that female soldier with your little, "suck it up and drive on", mentality, you wouldn't be a leader for long. In accordance with that same policy, a straight, or even a gay solider could insist on the same level of privacy and would have to be accorded that, as their right.

    I would love for you to try and force a female soldier to shower with a male soldier, or deny a soldier his/her rights to perform personal hygene and see how fast your butt is cashiered out of the service.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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