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Thread: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

  1. #231
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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    What works for one unit may not work for another. Can we at least agree on that?
    Absolutely true. However, this was back around 1990. Attitudes and policy have changed dramatically since then. The military and the country as a whole are much more accepting of gays today than they where then.

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    How about your best friend?
    I would go get some payback.



    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    What is the IDF policy on gays in the military? Just in case you where wondering, it's been allowed since 1993. Somehow, miraculously, they have been spared all the problems with it you think we will have. In fact, they are one of, if not the absolute best military force in the world soldier for soldier.
    Actually, since 1983, but, just because it works in Israel doesn't mean it's going to work in the US military.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    This is not relevant based on what I commented on. You stated that someone would cease combat/defense to attend to one they were close to, in your example their lover. My contention is that when someone you are close to is injured in combat, it doesn't matter what the relationship is. If they are someone you care a lot about, as a professional, one would act professionally.

    As I said before, there is a great divide between being best friends with someone and being lovers with someone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    I was in the military and I can tell you that is not true. The dorms are not segregated by floors. Women can live next to men, they can eat with them, shower with them, and sleep in each other's rooms together.
    Then, I am forced to question your claims of actually serving in the United States military, sir.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Actually, since 1983, but, just because it works in Israel doesn't mean it's going to work in the US military.
    This is where the arguments against gays in the military ultimately break down. We're told that unit cohesiveness and morale will be eroded. Disciplinary problems will abound. Sexual harassment will be rampant. Readiness will suffer. The troops will revolt.

    Yet when we look at military forces that have abolished the ban, we see none of these results.

    What we're left with are ambiguous claims that the U.S. military is somehow 'different.'


  4. #234
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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Then, I am forced to question your claims of actually serving in the United States military, sir.
    What years did you serve in the United States military?
    "Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." -Ronald Reagan

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Every dorm I lived in had men and women living side by side. They were like mini, (real mini) apartments.



    Kinda convienent.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

  6. #236
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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    The military is not a monolith. What works in one unit may not work in another. Just because you were able to serve openly in your unit does not mean it would have worked the same way in a Marine infantry unit.
    I was not the only openly gay member of the military, I have known plenty of others in many other units. The mission was never compromised.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    I think the problem here is pride - can't say I blame you either. I sure as hell wouldn't want to hide my sexuality from others but the military isn't about what we want to do, it's about what we have to do.
    Absolutely right, the military is about what we have to do, as I did everyday for 4 years. It isn't about sex, it isn't about finding a lover, it isn't about gawking at someone in the showers. The men and women I served with understood this, they knew what they were there for so it did not matter that I was gay. We were all able to focus on the mission when we had to.

    Above the issue of sexuality, the military expects every member to respect every other member, that is what they have to do.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Perhaps you are right, perhaps nothing bad will happen at all, but why should we take the risk? So gays don't have to swallow their pride? Hell, all I did was swallow my pride, day in and day out.

    We all make sacrifices, Alex. That's just the nature of the business.
    There is no risk, gays already serve and nothing bad has happened. That "social experiment" has drawn its conclusion for a long time now.



    What really gets me about all of this is that people who believe the military will crumble if DADT were repealed are insulting all the men and women that I served with. All of them were outstanding members for being able to focus on their missions without distractions, including a gay man next to them.

    From my experience, anyone who believes that the military will crumble if gays are serving openly are the ones who cannot focus on what is important in the service, so they are the ones who do not belong in the military.
    "Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." -Ronald Reagan

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    What years did you serve in the United States military?

    I served from '87-'00
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Then, I am forced to question your claims of actually serving in the United States military, sir.
    Now there are 2 other people in this thread who have supported the claim I made about gender integration. Both served in the military, 3 including me.

    Are you going to question all of our service?

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1058116669

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1058116999
    "Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." -Ronald Reagan

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by Grateful Heart View Post
    Yet when we look at military forces that have abolished the ban, we see none of these results.
    And. most armies that have abolished the ban haven't been in a battle in over a hundred years. I mean specifically, Sweden, Switzerland. Israel didn't abolish the ban till well after the Yom Kippur War. That was the last time they were in a full scale battle. So, we have nothing to use as a barometer to say that it works as you say.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  10. #240
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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    Now there are 2 other people in this thread who have supported the claim I made about gender integration. Both served in the military, 3 including me.

    Are you going to question all of our service?

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1058116669

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1058116999
    Sir, let me be as plain as I can. NOWHERE in the military do males and females share the same latrine/showers/rooms. They don't do sleep-overs, or any of that sort of thing. The ONLY time that a male and female soldier can share billets, is if they're married. Yes, they do share dining facilities. I never said otherwise.

    1 in 3 female soldiers experiences sexual assault while in the service. Do you SERIOUSLY think that the services are going to allow males and females to use, simoltaniously, the same showers? I don't even think will happen in a dream world.

    You're not going to be pinchin' a loaf and some chick walk in to use the latrine. You're not going to be taking a shower and a female cruise in to take a showe with you. It ain't gonna happen, unless a male and female soldier are doing something they shouldn't be.

    There are males and female areas, period.

    Anyone that says different, I have to seriously question the varacity of their claiming to have actually served in the military.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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