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Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

Catz Part Deux said:
Can someone answer a simple question for me? Why are some supposedly manly testosterone-heavy men so obviously scared of gay men?
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So, you're still convinced that it's all about homophobia? Surely you're smarter than that.
 
Blackdog said:
Nice...

Me and my wife Halloween 2007:

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aaaaarrrrrrrrrrgggggggghhhhhh!
 
apdst said:
So, you're still convinced that it's all about homophobia? Surely you're smarter than that.
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Dislike of homosexuals comes in many forms. Sometimes it manifests in a personal discomfort. Other times it manifests in a more general antipathy. I don't personally use the word 'homophobe' except in the rarest of occasions. And I wouldn't use it here.

You mentioned earlier that you knew of only one gay soldier during your time in the service. Only one. You indicated he had serious predatory tendencies. You said he repeatedly got caught 'oogling' men in the shower. You said that he got his ass kicked and was sent to the psychiatrist who determined he was unstable and unfit for service. He was kicked out of the service. Not a particularly flattering portrait. In fact, you'd be hard-pressed to paint a more unflattering portrait, unless it turns out he was also humping the sheep and shoplifting at the post exchange.

This is the one and only gay soldier you came into contact with.

The only one.

A serial predator to got his ass kicked in the shower?

:confused::confused::confused:

During my time with the Air Force I met a gay Navy fighter pilot.

I met gay acquisition officers and planners in the pentagon.

I met gay medical personnel who served with distinction.

I had a date with a guy in the official Air Force band. (No joke.)

Your story about one serial predator doesn't fit the reality of the many gay men and lesbians who serve now and have served in the past.

It does, however, fit neatly with a narrow-minded anti-gay agenda. Call it what you will.

:cool:
 
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Oh, just remembered... after college I briefly dated a Navy guy who shipped off on a submarine. He used to write me long letters. As far as I know he did his job well and without any problems.

I can't think of a more 'intimate' environment than a sub.

:cool:
 
Why would it hinder the unit or whatever? If I were in war, all I would care about is if the guy or gal next to me could shoot, not which side they got their bread buttered.
 
tlmorg02 said:
Why would it hinder the unit or whatever? If I were in war, all I would care about is if the guy or gal next to me could shoot, not which side they got their bread buttered.
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It matters, because there more to it than just being able to shoot.
 
Catz Part Deux said:
I'm a fan of Occam's Razor. The simplest explanation is usually the correct one.
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It states that one should make as few assumptions as possible. It's automatically assumed that my objection the abolition of DADT, let me say that again, my objection to the abolition of DADT; is based purely on a fear of gay men.
 
apdst said:
That's the only argument that you have.
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Actually, I've got all the arguments.

My best argument is that gays have successfully been included in foreign militarys with none of the detrimental results predicted by many in our own services. That alone should be sufficient evidence.

But if it weren't, there's the evidence that gays have been integrated into police units, firehouses, S.W.A.T. teams, the FBI, the CIA, top positions in corporate America, and in all levels of government. We teach in the schools, perform brain surgery (yes, I really know a gay brain surgeon), and we do just about every other job imaginable with little or no difficulty getting along with others.

The facts and the evidence are all on my side.

Your argument is based on consensus. That's no argument at all.

:2wave:
 
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Grateful Heart said:
Actually, I've got all the arguments.

My best argument is that gays have successfully been included in foreign militarys with none of the detrimental results predicted by many in our own services. That alone should be sufficient evidence.
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Because of DADT. When DADT is abolished, it's going to be a different story.

What if you're wrong and people die because of your bad idea? Would it still be worth it? I don't care how many gay brain surgeons you know. That's irrellevant.
 
apdst said:
What if you're wrong and people die because of your bad idea? Would it still be worth it? I don't care how many gay brain surgeons you know. That's irrellevant.
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Your whole argument is based on "WHAT-IFS".

The facts are gays ARE serving, gays HAVE served. Those aren't WHAT-IFS, those are FACTS.
 
TheNextEra said:
Your whole argument is based on "WHAT-IFS".

The facts are gays ARE serving, gays HAVE served. Those aren't WHAT-IFS, those are FACTS.
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It ain't broke, so you wanna fix it?
 
apdst said:
What if you're wrong and people die because of your bad idea? Would it still be worth it? I don't care how many gay brain surgeons you know. That's irrellevant.
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Well, if that brain surgeon happened to be wearing a uniform and operating on a severe head wound sustained in combat, it would not be irrelevant, would it.

That aside, how many people have died because the British military allows gays to serve? How many Israeli or Australian soldiers have died because they allow gays to serve?

Got some numbers?

;)
 
Grateful Heart said:
Well, if that brain surgeon happened to be wearing a uniform and operating on a severe head wound sustained in combat, it would not be irrelevant, would it.
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Well, it would relevant, because a ****in' brain surgeon isn't going to be in a forward unit. But, hey, it ain't you life on the line. Right?


That aside, how many people have died because the British military allows gays to serve? How many Israeli or Australian soldiers have died because they allow gays to serve?
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The Wermacht during WW2 allowed gays to serve in the ranks, as did the Shutzstauffel. How did it turn out for them? How many German soldiers died during WW2? There's ya numbers for ya.
 
Grateful Heart said:
We've heard that before...

wallace.jpg


:2wave:
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You Libbos can't make an argument without playing the race card. Can you? How pathetic! What would you all do if there were no blacks in this country? You would be screwed, blued and tattoed.
 
apdst said:
You Libbos can't make an argument without playing the race card. Can you? How pathetic! What would you all do if there were no blacks in this country? You would be screwed, blued and tattoed.
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a. I've voted Republican in every presidential race since I turned 18.

b. Bigotry against gays is no different than bigotry against a race, religion, or ethnic group. George Wallace stood up for the 'consensus' opinion of his era. An opinion that has proved utterly wrong-headed over time. Your anti-gay position is based on nothing more than 'consensus,' just like Wallace's.

c. I'm baffled by your question about German war casualties. Perhaps you can tell me, how many German's died in WWII because gays served in the German army?

:confused:
 
Apdst, you have defended your position in this entire thread (and others). There was a time when I shared many of the same opinions that you now have, but that was then and this is now. Allowing gays to serve openly in the military today would not have the same negative impact that it had 20 or more years ago. Society has changed (and not all for the better I might add), and gays are far more openly accepted than they used to be. Are there homophobes out there still? Sure there are. But there are racists as well (many of them serving) and there isn't a problem with blacks serving in the military. There was a time when there would have been problems (and there were at first) with black serving alongside whites, but as society moved passed that, it became less and less of an issue.

I have a friend in Kansas City who is gay. He and I used to go play poker together, we'd watch football together and he seemed like your average ordinary heterosexual guy. Then one day in the break room at work, he said something about a guy on television being hot and I couldn't believe what I just heard. I knew this man for at least 6 months before I knew he was gay. When I found out, I was shocked at first, but it didn't affect my friendship with him one bit. He never "checked me out", and he never discussed his sexuality openly. He was a good friend, a great co-worker and the fact that he was gay made no difference to me whatsoever. If this had happened 20 years ago, I probably would have reacted differently, only to realize later on that it made no difference whatsoever. I guess my point is that there's nothing to be afraid of regarding gays in the military. Some of the hardest working people I've come across in my lifetime are gay men. Now I'm not saying that gay men are harder workers than straight men, but they tend to be more "detail oriented" than the average man. And when you are in combat and under fire, I want the detail oriented guy watching my back.

DADT isn't a horrible policy, but I do think it's unnecessary at this point in our history. If someone has a problem serving with a gay man (or woman for that matter - don't want to leave out the ladies), then they have bigger problems that they need to address. You can cite all the statistics you want to and cite all the polls you want to, but they all have historical context too, and that needs to be taken into consideration. I respect your opinion, but I also disagree with it in today's society and age.
 
apdst said:
Well, it would relevant, because a ****in' brain surgeon isn't going to be in a forward unit. But, hey, it ain't you life on the line. Right?
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So is it your position that gays should be allowed to serve openly as long as they aren't in a forward unit?

The Wermacht during WW2 allowed gays to serve in the ranks, as did the Shutzstauffel. How did it turn out for them? How many German soldiers died during WW2? There's ya numbers for ya.
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I'd really like to explore this line of argument in more detail. What is your understanding of the civilian and military policies toward gays under the Nazis? And in what sense do you believe those policies helped or hindered their war effort?

??
 
Grateful Heart said:
I'd really like to explore this line of argument in more detail. What is your understanding of the civilian and military policies toward gays under the Nazis? And in what sense do you believe those policies helped or hindered their war effort?

??
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Ummm Homosexuals were sent to prison and concentration camps in NAZI Germany. They were hated almost as much as Jews.

"An estimated 1.2 million men were homosexuals in Germany in 1928. Between 1933-45, an estimated 100,000 men were arrested as homosexuals, of which some 50,000 were officially sentenced. Most of these men served time in regular prisons, and an estimated 5,000 to 15,000 of those sentenced were incarcerated in concentration camps. It is unclear how many of the 5,000 to 15,000 eventually perished in the camps, but leading scholar Ruediger Lautman believes that the death rate of homosexuals in concentration camps may have been as high as 60%. Homosexuals in the camps were treated in an unusually cruel manner by their captors, and were also persecuted by their fellow inmates. This was a factor in the relatively high death rate for homosexuals, compared to other groups.

After the war, the treatment of homosexuals in concentration camps went unacknowledged by most countries, and some men were even re-arrested and imprisoned based on evidence found during the Nazi years. It was not until the 1980s that governments began to acknowledge this episode, and not until 2002 that the German government apologized to the gay community. This period still provokes controversy, however. In 2005, the European Parliament adopted a resolution on the Holocaust which included the persecution of homosexuals." - [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_homosexuals_in_Nazi_Germany_and_the_Holocaust]Persecution of homosexuals in Nazi Germany and the Holocaust - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]


I have no clue how he came up with gays serving in the German military under the Nazi's.
 
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apdst said:
The Wermacht during WW2 allowed gays to serve in the ranks, as did the Shutzstauffel. How did it turn out for them? How many German soldiers died during WW2? There's ya numbers for ya.
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You'll have to show me where gays were allowed to serve during that time.
 
G.I. Joe said:
Nice try at oversimplifying something to make me seem like an idiot.
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I do not have to make you "seem" like anything. You dig your own grave, don't point the finger at me.

Obviously i was making a point that not every sexual orientation is natural, and there have been studies that show pedophiles cannot help their attraction to children.
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Let's try further elaborating, because stating that pedophiles cannot help their attraction to children does little to convince me that we should keep gays out of the military. I'm going to need you to connect the dots here and formulate an argument.

If it makes you feel smart to belittle my intelligence, feel free. i won't lose any sleep over it.
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Roger that.
 
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