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Thread: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    That is not quite accurate. There is a risk in doing anything, the question is how big a risk, and how big a reward. In the case of gays openly serving, the risk is almost zero.
    How can you say "the risk is almost zero" when you know little to nothing about the psychological makeup of the average combat unit?

    Also, what possible reward can be obtained from abolishing DADT?

    Gays serve now, and the only trouble is the chance they might get discharged for being gay.
    Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. It's situational and flexible.

    Other countries allow gays to serve openly, and do not have troubles.
    We're talking about America.

    The reward however is high, with no longer having to discharge people who have served honorably for long periods...
    Did you ever stop to consider the fact that discharging certain people helps maintain the integrity of a unit? Numbers aren't everything, you know.

    ...and a larger pool of potential recruits.
    If someone really wants to serve then I'm certain they will make the necessary sacrifices.

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    This is an assumption. I was pretty damn professional myself, but I can't say for sure I'd maintain my professionalism if I saw my lover dying right in front of my eyes.
    How about your best friend?


    I won't disagree that you make good and sensible points, I've already admitted that this is a difficult stance for me to take, but it is one I take out of necessity.

    Operational risk management dictates that you default to the proven method, especially when the alternate method offers very little in the way of improvement. The mere possibility of endangering our troops is enough for me to resist this policy change.
    Since I see little or no difference between the two issues...the one being presented and the alternate that I am presenting, I see no risk. In fact, since my scenario already exists, the risk is already there.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

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    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


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    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
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    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    The risk mentioned here is proven false by the fact that gays serve openly as we speak yet unit cohesion and discipline are not compromised.
    The military is not a monolith. What works in one unit may not work in another. Just because you were able to serve openly in your unit does not mean it would have worked the same way in a Marine infantry unit.

    I think the problem here is pride - can't say I blame you either. I sure as hell wouldn't want to hide my sexuality from others but the military isn't about what we want to do, it's about what we have to do.

    Perhaps you are right, perhaps nothing bad will happen at all, but why should we take the risk? So gays don't have to swallow their pride? Hell, all I did was swallow my pride, day in and day out.

    We all make sacrifices, Alex. That's just the nature of the business.

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    How about your best friend?
    It's totally different and you know it is. There is no way to compare a person's lover to their best friend. I don't **** my best friend. I don't stare deep into his eyes in the wee hours of the morning and declare my undying love to him.

    Since I see little or no difference between the two issues...the one being presented and the alternate that I am presenting, I see no risk.
    That's because you didn't serve. How can you speak intelligently about operational risk management and the military when you know little to nothing about either one?

    In fact, since my scenario already exists, the risk is already there.
    No, it does not exist. Gays are not allowed to serve openly in the military. If your scenario already existed there would be no need to change anything.

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    How can you say "the risk is almost zero" when you know little to nothing about the psychological makeup of the average combat unit?

    Also, what possible reward can be obtained from abolishing DADT?
    Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/09/op...=2&ref=opinion


    A 2006 poll of Iraq and Afghanistan war veterans showed that 72 percent were personally comfortable interacting with gays. Bonnie Moradi, a University of Florida psychologist, and Laura Miller, a sociologist at the Rand Corporation, summarized the study this way: “The data indicated no associations between knowing a lesbian or gay unit member and ratings of perceived unit cohesion or readiness. Instead, findings pointed to the importance of leadership and instrumental quality in shaping perceptions of unit cohesion and readiness.”
    And there is this older study done by Rand for the DoD: Changing the Policy Toward Homosexuals in the U.S. Military

    The reward is not having to discharge openly gay personnel, which does happen, and every time it does, costs us a significant amount. The reward is further having more highly qualified recruits, and maybe actually being able to raise recruitment standards, instead of lower them.

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    It's totally different and you know it is. There is no way to compare a person's lover to their best friend. I don't **** my best friend. I don't stare deep into his eyes in the wee hours of the morning and declare my undying love to him.
    Disagree. Though the type of feelings may be different, the degree may not.

    That's because you didn't serve. How can you speak intelligently about operational risk management and the military when you know little to nothing about either one?
    Irrelevant, and don't pull the "holier than thou, you didn't serve" bs on me. I can speak intelligently on things that I have not experienced. If this were not the case for scenarios in this forum, then excuse yourself from this thread, since, not being having served in the military as one who is gay, you have nothing intelligent to say on the matter.



    No, it does not exist. Gays are not allowed to serve openly in the military. If your scenario already existed there would be no need to change anything.
    Just because they are not allowed to serve openly does not mean they do not serve...which they do. My scenario certainly can exist.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
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    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    No, it does not exist. Gays are not allowed to serve openly in the military. If your scenario already existed there would be no need to change anything.
    I knew gays who, for all intents and purposes where openly gay, and I got out before DADT. One guy brought his boyfriend to squadron family functions. We all knew he was gay. Just because technically something is not allowed does not mean that it is not done sometimes.

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Disagree. Though the type of feelings may be different, the degree may not.
    You can disagree all you like, but it doesn't change the absolute fact that watching your lover die is in no way comparable to seeing your best friend die.

    I am not in love with my best friend. I do not think about him when I go to sleep and when I wake up. My heart doesn't beat out of my chest when he walks into the room naked. It's not the same, and you know it's not. I refuse to believe you cannot see the utter difference between a best friend and a lover.

    Irrelevant, and don't pull the "holier than thou, you didn't serve" bs on me.
    I'm not pulling any "holier than thou bs" on you. I'm simply stating a fact. You know little to nothing about operational risk management, military methodology, and the makeup of combat units, therefore you are not in a position to speak intelligently about the effects a policy change would have on them.

    I can speak intelligently on things that I have not experienced.
    But you cannot speak intelligently on things you don't know anything about. What do you know about a Marine or Army infantry unit? How are you able to speak intelligently about them?

    If this were not the case for scenarios in this forum, then excuse yourself from this thread, since, not being having served in the military as one who is gay, you have nothing intelligent to say on the matter.
    I have extensive experience serving in a Marine infantry unit, therefore I am in a position to speaking intelligently about how it would react to such a policy change. Whether or not I'm gay has absolutely no bearing on my ability to speak intelligently about the reaction and perception of a Marine infantry unit to the policy change in question.

    Just because they are not allowed to serve openly does not mean they do not serve...which they do.
    Well, that's the whole point, isn't it? The difference between serving openly and just serving?

    My scenario certainly can exist.
    Yes, but it didn't exist in my neck of the woods.

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I knew gays who, for all intents and purposes where openly gay, and I got out before DADT. One guy brought his boyfriend to squadron family functions. We all knew he was gay. Just because technically something is not allowed does not mean that it is not done sometimes.
    What works for one unit may not work for another. Can we at least agree on that?

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    You can disagree all you like, but it doesn't change the absolute fact that watching your lover die is in no way comparable to seeing your best friend die.

    I am not in love with my best friend. I do not think about him when I go to sleep and when I wake up. My heart doesn't beat out of my chest when he walks into the room naked. It's not the same, and you know it's not. I refuse to believe you cannot see the utter difference between a best friend and a lover.
    Sorry. Feelings are feelings. They may take a different form, but their intensity, in that context is still as intense. The context may be different, but, for me, the intensity would be the same.

    I'm not pulling any "holier than thou bs" on you. I'm simply stating a fact. You know little to nothing about operational risk management, military methodology, and the makeup of combat units, therefore you are not in a position to speak intelligently about the effects a policy change would have on them.
    That's bull****. You are certainly pulling the holier than thou crap. I certainly understand these concepts well enough to speak on them. Your dismissals are irrelevant. Perhaps you should check your objectivity.



    But you cannot speak intelligently on things you don't know anything about. What do you know about a Marine or Army infantry unit? How are you able to speak intelligently about them?
    Again, this is irrelevant. We are speaking about human interactions and relationships in times of stress and in times of working together. I have a hell of a lot of experience in that area. I can certainly speak intelligently on this issue.



    I have extensive experience serving in a Marine infantry unit, therefore I am in a position to speaking intelligently about how it would react to such a policy change. Whether or not I'm gay has absolutely no bearing on my ability to speak intelligently about the reaction and perception of a Marine infantry unit to the policy change in question.
    You are not gay and do not know how you would react in the scenario presented. Therefore, according to your logic, you cannot speak intelligently on this scenario.



    Well, that's the whole point, isn't it? The difference between serving openly and just serving?
    Sure. And since they do, show when this scenario has created widespread problems.

    Yes, but it didn't exist in my neck of the woods.
    Which doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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