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Thread: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    There's a huge difference between best friends and lovers. That is the reason that the IDF abolished coed combat units in 1950.

    That's a complete misinterpretation of the information. Yes, males and females share the same building, but their quarters and their latrines are completely seperate. i.e. males and females are housed in a three story building. The different floors are designated male and female. The male areas are off limits to females and vice versa.

    I believe everyone can attest to that.
    I was in the military and I can tell you that is not true. The dorms are not segregated by floors. Women can live next to men, they can eat with them, shower with them, and sleep in each other's rooms together.
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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    So, you assume would what happen, but you do not know.
    This entire thread is an assumption of what would happen.
    "Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." -Ronald Reagan

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    I was in the military and I can tell you that is not true. The dorms are not segregated by floors. Women can live next to men, they can eat with them, shower with them, and sleep in each other's rooms together.
    That is not true in the Marines.

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    There's a huge difference between best friends and lovers. That is the reason that the IDF abolished coed combat units in 1950.
    What is the IDF policy on gays in the military? Just in case you where wondering, it's been allowed since 1993. Somehow, miraculously, they have been spared all the problems with it you think we will have. In fact, they are one of, if not the absolute best military force in the world soldier for soldier.



    That's a complete misinterpretation of the information. Yes, males and females share the same building, but their quarters and their latrines are completely seperate. i.e. males and females are housed in a three story building. The different floors are designated male and female. The male areas are off limits to females and vice versa.

    I believe everyone can attest to that.
    Not like that in the navy at all.

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    So, you assume would what happen, but you do not know.
    No, what I'm saying is that if someone is going to act professionally, they will regardless of the circumstances. And if they are not, they won't. Lover or best friend who is injured, it would be irrelevant. The relationship would either have an impact or it wouldn't, but I do not believe that the nature of the relationship would matter. However, what I am saying is conjecture...as is what apdst is saying. My point is that what he said is a very narrow view, and other possibilities are easily presented.
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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    No, what I'm saying is that if someone is going to act professionally, they will regardless of the circumstances. And if they are not, they won't. Lover or best friend who is injured, it would be irrelevant. The relationship would either have an impact or it wouldn't, but I do not believe that the nature of the relationship would matter. However, what I am saying is conjecture...as is what apdst is saying. My point is that what he said is a very narrow view, and other possibilities are easily presented.
    One thing we do have is some evidence. Claims of over 30k gays in the military suggest that we can draw some conclusions based on things as they are now. What we are not seeing is a rash of gay sexual harassment, or lack of unit cohesion, or abnormal numbers of disciple problems.

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    This entire thread is an assumption of what would happen.
    Precisely, and since you served you should know that operational risk management is a key aspect of military methodology. Everything the military does is predicated upon a risk vs. reward scenario. Abolishing DADT fails to past muster.

    Risk: Possible degradation of unit cohesion and discipline within combat forces.

    Reward: Homosexuals feel better about themselves while serving and progressives feel super warm and fuzzy about making the world a sweet and nice place to live.

    I find it funny that you were able to serve openly under DADT without any problems yet you still insist on abolishing it. Why would you take a policy that permits flexibility and change it into one that is rigid and uncompromising? What do you hope to accomplish?

    I say, if ain't broke, don't fix it.

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Precisely, and since you served you should know that operational risk management is a key aspect of military methodology. Everything the military does is predicated upon a risk vs. reward scenario. Abolishing DADT fails to past muster.

    Risk: Possible degradation of unit cohesion and discipline within combat forces.

    Reward: Homosexuals feel better about themselves while serving and progressives feel super warm and fuzzy about making the world a sweet and nice place to live.

    I find it funny that you were able to serve openly under DADT without any problems yet you still insist on abolishing it. Why would you take a policy that permits flexibility and change it into one that is rigid and uncompromising? What do you hope to accomplish?

    I say, if ain't broke, don't fix it.
    That is not quite accurate. There is a risk in doing anything, the question is how big a risk, and how big a reward. In the case of gays openly serving, the risk is almost zero. Gays serve now, and the only trouble is the chance they might get discharged for being gay. Other countries allow gays to serve openly, and do not have troubles. The reward however is high, with no longer having to discharge people who have served honorably for long periods, and a larger pool of potential recruits.

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    No, what I'm saying is that if someone is going to act professionally, they will regardless of the circumstances. And if they are not, they won't. Lover or best friend who is injured, it would be irrelevant. The relationship would either have an impact or it wouldn't, but I do not believe that the nature of the relationship would matter.
    This is an assumption. I was pretty damn professional myself, but I can't say for sure I'd maintain my professionalism if I saw my lover dying right in front of my eyes.

    However, what I am saying is conjecture...as is what apdst is saying. My point is that what he said is a very narrow view, and other possibilities are easily presented.
    I won't disagree that you make good and sensible points, I've already admitted that this is a difficult stance for me to take, but it is one I take out of necessity.

    Operational risk management dictates that you default to the proven method, especially when the alternate method offers very little in the way of improvement. The mere possibility of endangering our troops is enough for me to resist this policy change.

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Precisely, and since you served you should know that operational risk management is a key aspect of military methodology. Everything the military does is predicated upon a risk vs. reward scenario. Abolishing DADT fails to past muster.

    Risk: Possible degradation of unit cohesion and discipline within combat forces.

    Reward: Homosexuals feel better about themselves while serving and progressives feel super warm and fuzzy about making the world a sweet and nice place to live.

    I find it funny that you were able to serve openly under DADT without any problems yet you still insist on abolishing it. Why would you take a policy that permits flexibility and change it into one that is rigid and uncompromising? What do you hope to accomplish?

    I say, if ain't broke, don't fix it.
    The risk mentioned here is proven false by the fact that gays serve openly as we speak yet unit cohesion and discipline are not compromised.
    "Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." -Ronald Reagan

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