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Thread: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

  1. #181
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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    I'm torn.

    I understand both sides of the argument, each make good points, but if I had to choose I would err on the side of caution. I don't think it's prudent to risk unit integrity for something that will be of little tangible value to anyone.

    Everyone makes sacrifices when they join the military, not just gay folks, and if keeping your sexuality private could help insure a more efficient unit, shouldn't you be willing to make that sacrifice?

    The current policy works; it's more flexible and situational because it allows members to discern when and where it is appropriate to make their sexuality known. Perhaps, Alex, your coming out wouldn't have been as well-received in my unit. Not that it's right, but that's the reality.

    If it weren't a matter of life and death I'd be inclined to change the policy, but when we're talking about putting the integrity of our combat units at risk I MUST default to the proven method.

    Iím just not sure why some people think itís so important to change this policy. I mean, is it REALLY necessary? Just my two centsÖ

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    I'm torn.

    I understand both sides of the argument, each make good points, but if I had to choose I would err on the side of caution. I don't think it's prudent to risk unit integrity for something that will be of little tangible value to anyone.

    Everyone makes sacrifices when they join the military, not just gay folks, and if keeping your sexuality private could help insure a more efficient unit, shouldn't you be willing to make that sacrifice?

    The current policy works; it's more flexible and situational because it allows members to discern when and where it is appropriate to make their sexuality known. Perhaps, Alex, your coming out wouldn't have been as well-received in my unit. Not that it's right, but that's the reality.

    If it weren't a matter of life and death I'd be inclined to change the policy, but when we're talking about putting the integrity of our combat units at risk I MUST default to the proven method.

    Iím just not sure why some people think itís so important to change this policy. I mean, is it REALLY necessary? Just my two centsÖ

    Very well said.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  3. #183
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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Let's recap this thread a bit, I think it will be entertaining. First, apdst claimed that sexual harassment would go through the roof if gays could serve. Never offered any proof, or even any evidence this might be the case. Then he said that opening doors for some one was sexual harassment, which one of his few sources actually proved to be a lie. When presented with real data about sexual harassment rates, he dismisses it, and claims the think tank that did the study was a liberal think tank, but has to duck from that accusation when it is proven, once again, to be a lie. He then goes to saying he trusts "boots on the ground" over a study into actual rates of trouble, but he offers no cases of boots on the ground agreeing with his view except himself. No other boot on the ground is saying sexual harassment rates are going to go through the roof.

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I don't think I ever said that was neccessarily the case. Did I? If so, then I apologize. You're more than welcome to quote me, if you can.

    That's not true. I spoke out against policy quite often when I was in the service.


    My issue is, simply, that having openly gay soldiers serving in the military, especially in combat arms, will cause a breakdown in discpline. These breakdowns in discipline could result in soldiers getting killed. There have already been breakdowns in discipline in coed units. It's the reason that the IDF no longer allow coed combat arms units.

    I was always cool with DADT; thought it was a revolutionary policy. Wanna be gay? Go be gay...on your time. When you're on my time, you're a heartbreaker and a lifetaker.

    Didn't get that cold in Vietnam, huh?...LOL!!! Take my word for it, when it's 15 below, you're not going to give a ****...LOL!!!
    I spent 4 years active duty and 21 years AF reserve so my only experience with "close" quarters was in Vietnam. Even our enlisted live in dorm style quarters after technical school training and even in most AF tech schools the closest quarters that we had was similar to college dorms. Long story short I really cannot claim a personnal perspective on what living in close quarters are. Therefore my new view of DADT is from an Air Force experience. No we are not spoiled we just don't live like the Army. Maybe AirForce Special Forces is closer to you guys in combat arms.

    NO !! We did not get snow days off in Vietnam LOL It did drop down to 84 dergrees one cold windy night in the Central Highlands.
    Last edited by F107HyperSabr; 07-02-09 at 11:11 PM.
    ďI do not recall the Viet Cong asking me if I was a natural born or Naturalized American before they shot at me, they just shot at all of us ď f107HyperSabr

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Iím just not sure why some people think itís so important to change this policy. I mean, is it REALLY necessary? Just my two centsÖ
    It wasn't really necessary to allow blacks into the service. Times changed.

    Few people look back on the segregated services with nostalgia. We recognized bigotry for what it was.

    Years from now, people will read these old message boards and chuckle at the bigotry.

    Yes. I use the word bigots. Sorry if that offends anyone. It is what it is. If you don't like homosexuals, you're a bigot.


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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by Grateful Heart View Post
    It wasn't really necessary to allow blacks into the service. Times changed.

    Few people look back on the segregated services with nostalgia. We recognized bigotry for what it was.

    Years from now, people will read these old message boards and chuckle at the bigotry.

    Yes. I use the word bigots. Sorry if that offends anyone. It is what it is. If you don't like homosexuals, you're a bigot.

    Gays will be allowed to openly serve in the military. This, there's no doubt about. The Dems aren't going to take a chance with pissing off their base. Votes and retention of power take priority.

    Will it have a positive affect on the military? No. Will it cause sexual harrassment to rise? Yes. Will it transmorgrify our armed services into something other than the deadliest, most proficient fighting force in the history of the world? Not even. Does putting the welfare of our servicemen ahead of political correctness make one a bigot? Why, hell no.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  7. #187
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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by Grateful Heart View Post
    Few people look back on the segregated services with nostalgia.

    What about the, "Greatest Generation"?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  8. #188
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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by Grateful Heart View Post
    It wasn't really necessary to allow blacks into the service. Times changed.

    Few people look back on the segregated services with nostalgia. We recognized bigotry for what it was.

    Years from now, people will read these old message boards and chuckle at the bigotry.

    Yes. I use the word bigots. Sorry if that offends anyone. It is what it is. If you don't like homosexuals, you're a bigot.

    I do not in any way see the racial intergration of the armed forces in 1947 any way the same as acceptance of open gays in the military. Being Black is a physical attritube and not a behavior as is acting out gayness. True that Blacks are born as a racial type without a choice and the new thinking now is that gays are have no choice being born the way they are. What is not the same is thatgays have the choice ofnot acting out their gayness.

    Therefore the issues of racila intergration in the ARmed Forces and allowing open gayness is not the same al all.
    ďI do not recall the Viet Cong asking me if I was a natural born or Naturalized American before they shot at me, they just shot at all of us ď f107HyperSabr

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by chevydriver1123 View Post
    I asked my dad who served in Vietnam how he felt about the DADT policy. He told me that he believes its stupid and if they can kill the enemy it shouldnt matter.

    Gay West Point grad testifies before Army | recordonline.com
    It doesn't matter what the policy should be, it matters what the policy is.

    He broke the rules and suffer the consequences.

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    What about the, "Greatest Generation"?
    There's plenty the 'Greatest Generation' accomplished to look back on nostalgically. Segregation isn't generally thought of as one of those accomplishments.


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