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Thread: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by Grateful Heart View Post
    I won't challenge your own anecdote about the gay service member who got his ass kicked for oogling a dude in the shower. But I will question the details. Were you there to witness the oogling personally? Did you witness the ass kicking? Please elaborate.

    No, I didn't witness it, but I had to leave in the middle of supper with my wife to go to the barracks and deal with it, since I was their platoon sgt. According to the soldiers who did witness it, it wasn't the first time that the guy had acted inappropriately, and it was delt with smong themselves, as soldiers will sometimes do, but I'm sure that that was the first time that it had turned violent. I was pissed that it was allowed to get that far and wrote everybody up. The gay soldier for sexual harrassment--IAW the Army's definition of sexual harrassment--the sexually harrassed soldier for assault and two soldiers--a fireteam leader and a squad leader--for dereliction of duty. As NCO's in leadership positions, they should have prevented it from going that far.


    The company commander insisted that it be dealt with at the company level, very much against my advice. He didn't want the battalion commander finding out about it, which I understood, kinda. He was a weak CO and he was on the BC's radar, so I understood his motivation. The gay soldier was transferred to another platoon, but it wasn't long before there was trouble there, just about the same scenario, too and then the issue made it's way to battalion, where the **** really hit the fan over the whole ordeal.

    The gay soldier was sent for a head measuring session and determined to have some serious preditorial tendencies. Ulimately, he was discharged for an, "inability to adapt to military life", a Chapter 7 discharge. When he went to the shrink, he admitted to two other incidents in basic training. One was never written up, because no one wanted to deal with all the bee-ess and the other was never reported.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    No, I didn't witness it, but I had to leave in the middle of supper with my wife to go to the barracks and deal with it, since I was their platoon sgt. According to the soldiers who did witness it, it wasn't the first time that the guy had acted inappropriately, and it was delt with smong themselves, as soldiers will sometimes do, but I'm sure that that was the first time that it had turned violent. I was pissed that it was allowed to get that far and wrote everybody up. The gay soldier for sexual harrassment--IAW the Army's definition of sexual harrassment--the sexually harrassed soldier for assault and two soldiers--a fireteam leader and a squad leader--for dereliction of duty. As NCO's in leadership positions, they should have prevented it from going that far.
    You said he was charged with sexual harassment. What was the nature of the harassment? Simply looking at somebody in the shower? Or did he make some sexual advance?

    ..

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Not that I can find any evidence on. I do know they are funded partly by, guess who, the DoD. About the RAND Corporation | RAND Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs)



    Can you back up your liberal claim by chance?



    You know the difference between anecdotal evidence(which is what you supplied), and a study using statistics from the services as a whole? That difference is important.




    The majority of veterans who have commented on this in this thread have supported gays in the military. Do I need to count the numbers for you?

    I'm sorry if you don't approve, but I'm going to take boots on the ground over a piece of paper hanging in someone's office, anyday.


    By the way, I do not put anything ahead of my service and love of country. Watch your personal accusations
    You might try extending the same courtesy to me, sir.

    Got that latrine info? It's ok, if you don't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by Grateful Heart View Post
    You said he was charged with sexual harassment. What was the nature of the harassment? Simply looking at somebody in the shower? Or did he make some sexual advance?
    "staring", falls under the Army's definition of sexual harrassment, as published in AR 600-20, Chapter 7, Section 5, Paragraph b.

    http://www.sexualassault.army.mil/fi...0_chapter7.pdf
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    "staring", falls under the Army's definition of sexual harrassment, as published in AR 600-20, Chapter 7, Section 5, Paragraph b.

    http://www.sexualassault.army.mil/fi...0_chapter7.pdf
    Did he admit to the staring? Did he admit to being gay?

    ??

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by Grateful Heart View Post
    Did he admit to the staring? Did he admit to being gay?

    ??

    He didn't admit to being gay to me, but he finally admitted it during his session with the head shrinker. At the time that I wrote him up for sexual harrassment, it didn't matter if he was gay, or not. He was staring at a nekkid soldier in a manner that caused that soldier perceive that he was being sexually harrassed. Now, according to the regulation, a soldier only has to perceive sexual harrassment (this took hours, ok...LOL). The harrassed soldier claimed that he perceived harrassment and therefore had a legitimate complaint, according to Army regulations. After I looked at the regulation closely and found out that this wasn't the first incident, I had no choice but to agree that sexual harrassment had taken place. However, that didn't excuse him from assaulting another soldier, because he was obviously in no kind of physical danger, so that's the reason he went from E-4 to E-2 the next day.

    That's why I say this is going to get tricky as hell for leaders in the miliary, especially in the combat arms where there are so many alpha males.
    Last edited by apdst; 07-02-09 at 09:51 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Okay. I'm just trying to square the 'staring' behavior with the later report from the shrink that the guy had "serious preditorial tendencies." Staring doesn't sound like predatory behavior to me.

    So this was your one and only experience with a gay soldier while in the service?

    Did you ever get treatment from a male nurse?


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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I'm sorry if you don't approve, but I'm going to take boots on the ground over a piece of paper hanging in someone's office, anyday.
    And yet you are not. Nowhere did your "boots on the ground" claim there was going to be an increase in sexual harassment if gays where allowed to server. You made that claim. Your retired flag officers never mention sexual harassment. Now, I have offered a study, done by some one who is employed indirectly by the DoD, who says that this is not a problem. So what we have is you versus some one who has actually studied the issue for the military. Wonder who is more believable, especially considering you have offered nothing beyond anecdotal evidence?


    You might try extending the same courtesy to me, sir.
    I have never accused you of being anything other than wrong. That was not even a good misdirect from your attack on my service.

    Got that latrine info? It's ok, if you don't.
    Been there, done that. I have documented a ton in this thread, and you have offered nothing past anecdotes.

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Uhh
    So you're worried that the sexual harrassment rate is going to go through the roof because gay men will open doors for straight men?


    That's hilarious.

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I have never accused you of being anything other than wrong. That was not even a good misdirect from your attack on my service.

    You've attacked me several times, and not only on this thread. One of your first posts in response to me was, as you called it, "a tongue lashing". Shall I go find that thread for you? You accused me of being incapable of rational debate. I never attacked your service, I only questioned your motive.

    Been there, done that. I have documented a ton in this thread, and you have offered nothing past anecdotes.
    That's incorrect, sir. You made that claim that males and females frequently use latrine facilities, together. You've yet to support that claim.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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