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Thread: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    ^^^

    One reason I ask the above question is that I've known quite a few gay service members. None of them have ever related to me any interesting 'shower' stories.

    I have, however, been deluged with 'shower' horror scenarios from straight service members concerned about military readiness. All of them imaginary.


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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by Grateful Heart View Post
    Do you believe most men worry about being leered at in the locker room at the gym? I'm a member of 24 Hour Fitness. There's no 'gay' policy there. And to my knowledge, no one's even raised the issue. Guys work out, shower, change, and get on with their business.
    Do they work together with loaded weapons? Do they have to depend on each other to stay alive on the battlefield? What's the sexual harrassment policy at your gym?

    What are the specific 'ramifications' you're so concerned about regarding the shower scenario in the military? Can you elaborate?
    it could cause a breakdown in discipline. When those soldiers at Ft. Huaichuca beat the crap out of that gay soldier, it was a breakdown in discipline. Do we won't that scenario to take place in the field, where it could degrade a unit's combat power?

    What if recruitment falls way below quota? Would you rather our all volunteer force be replaced by a conscripted force? If you're opposed to a draft, then you may need to think about whether, or not, it's worth it.

    Could you also elaborate on your 'spooning' scenario? If male and female soldiers were somehow caught in 15 below zero conditions, do you believe 'spooning' for warmth would lead to unwanted sexual advances?
    Females aren't allowed to serve in combat arms units. In those units, most specifically infantry units, is where that scenario is most likely to take place.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by Grateful Heart View Post
    One reason I ask the above question is that I've known quite a few gay service members. None of them have ever related to me any interesting 'shower' stories.
    yeah, and everyone always has a black, or Latino friend and so on. I only ever met one gay service member and he got his ass kicked for oogling at a dude in the shower one night--charged with sexual harrassment, then later discharged--so I'm having a hard time believing that this many people know that many gay troops. Just guaging by my own experience.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  4. #144
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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by Grateful Heart View Post
    ^^^

    One reason I ask the above question is that I've known quite a few gay service members. None of them have ever related to me any interesting 'shower' stories.

    I have, however, been deluged with 'shower' horror scenarios from straight service members concerned about military readiness. All of them imaginary.

    There has been one statistical study of the effect of gays in the US military: Palm Center Releases First-Ever Statistical Study On Gays and Unit Cohesion

    The data indicated no associations between knowing a lesbian or gay unit member and ratings of perceived unit cohesion or readiness. Instead, findings pointed to the importance of leadership and instrumental quality in shaping perceptions of unit cohesion and readiness.

    The new study was conducted by Drs. Bonnie Moradi of the University of Florida and Laura Miller of the Rand Corporation, a think tank with longstanding ties to the Pentagon started after World War II by former military officers.

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    There has been one statistical study of the effect of gays in the US military: Palm Center Releases First-Ever Statistical Study On Gays and Unit Cohesion
    Let's see, on the one hand, we have one thousand officers saying that it's a bad idea. On the other hand, we have kid from UC Santa Barbara, with an obvious agenda, whose made appearances on NPR and Democracy Now.

    I'm goin' with the generals. Sorry.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Let's see, on the one hand, we have one thousand officers saying that it's a bad idea. On the other hand, we have kid from UC Santa Barbara, with an obvious agenda, whose made appearances on NPR and Democracy Now.

    I'm goin' with the generals. Sorry.
    Dr. Laura L. Miller

    Dr. Laura L. Miller is a military sociologist at the Rand Corporation. She holds a Bacheloršs Degree from University of Redlands, and a Masteršs Degree and Doctorate from Northwestern University. She is a member of the Army Science Board, the Executive Council of the Inter-University Seminar on Armed Forces and Society, and the Board of Directors of the Center for the Study of Sexual Minorities in the Military. She is widely published and has conducted extensive research on various social issues in the military. She served on the Fowler Commission investigating sexual misconduct at the Air Force Academy, and served as a consultant to the Secretary of the Army's Senior Review Panel on Sexual Harassment in 1997. She also served as survey consultant for the Congressional Commission on Military Training and Gender-Related Issues, and was a Post-doctoral Fellow at the John M. Olin Institute for Strategic Studies, Harvard University.
    Yeah, cannot see why a study she did on the current military would be taken over the word of a bunch of retired military people who belong to a conservative vet group.

  7. #147
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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I think that it is the right of every soldier to a safe and comfortable environment. Yes? Since you're retired, I'm sure you are already familiar with that policy. It's the same policy that prevents the military from forcing males and females to use the same shower, at the same time. It's also the same policy that EOB's are created IAW and the same policy that prohibits offciers and NCO's from physically punishing an enlisted man. Probably even the same policy that ended flogging as a punishment.

    You may want to reference FM 27-1, chapter 10 and/or AR 600-20, for further information.
    My point being that all those references were not VOTED on by all the soldiers. If the people in charge of the military deem it to be, it is.

    I'm sure that if voted upon at a time, blacks would not have been allowed to be officers. The military is not a democracy to vote policy changes by the soldiers.
    Last edited by TheNextEra; 07-02-09 at 08:07 PM.

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    My point being that all those references are not VOTED on by soldiers. If the people in charge of the military deem it to be, it is.
    "It is", up to the point when soldier's rights are an issue. Ever see a 1st sgt. relieved because he wasn't on time and on target with chow? I bet you have, if you spent 20+ years in the service. or, maybe you weren't in that kind of unit. I dunno.

    When it comes down to the rights that the military says these soldiers have, then they do have a choice, believe it, or not. If soldier don't agree with the abolition of DADT, they are going to vote. Probably with their feet and not a ballot, but vote just the same.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    I will say this, as a "non-ranger' person in the U.S. Army, when I was in I sure in the hell wouldn't have voted for the damn berets and force the ranger folks to go tan.

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    Re: Gay West Point grad testifies before Army

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    "It is", up to the point when soldier's rights are an issue. Ever see a 1st sgt. relieved because he wasn't on time and on target with chow? I bet you have, if you spent 20+ years in the service. or, maybe you weren't in that kind of unit. I dunno.
    Never had a 1st SGT in that situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    When it comes down to the rights that the military says these soldiers have, then they do have a choice, believe it, or not. If soldier don't agree with the abolition of DADT, they are going to vote. Probably with their feet and not a ballot, but vote just the same.
    Tell me when did the soldiers have a vote on DADT in the first place?

    Did the soldiers have a vote in Black Officers?
    Last edited by TheNextEra; 07-02-09 at 08:12 PM.

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