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Thread: Washington to California: Drop dead

  1. #131
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    Re: Washington to California: Drop dead

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Such as the noted libtard Alexander Hamilton
    From Wikipedia: "An admirer of British political systems, Hamilton emphasized strong central government and implied powers, under which the new U.S. Congress funded the national debt, assumed state debts, created a national bank, and established an import tariff and whiskey tax."

    Sounds like no libertarian that I know.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  2. #132
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    Re: Washington to California: Drop dead

    Quote Originally Posted by wbreese91 View Post
    A mass worker exodus is unlikely as the competing company would be unable to hire all the competitions workers, but both of us are speculating here. Either scenario could happen, but a minimum wage gives the workers some security. A company can still pay more and steal the workers if they want, but workers are protected from insufficient wages. I will argue with you if you want to say the minimum wage is too high, and that we shouldn't have unions forcing people into providing healthcare and other benefits to their workers, but I do not agree that the minimum wage should be elliminated.
    Mass worker exodus probably won't happen, but when someone is training for a job, which will he eventually apply for? The one that pays more, of course.

    You ignored my example about teen employment. Black teens now are twice as unemployed as white teens whereas previously they had roughly the same unemployment rate. This shows that (as expected) minimum wage is a barrier to entry into the job market. If your skills are not worth the minimum wage then why should you be hired? Most people don't make minimum wage, but if you don't have much education and can't get job experience then you're not going to make much money in the future. Guess which groups this hurts the most.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  3. #133
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    Re: Washington to California: Drop dead

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Such as the noted libtard Alexander Hamilton



    That doesn't surprise me. Read it sometime, along with US v. Butler.
    Still arguing from authority, I see, since you have neither logic nor Constitution on your side.

    The fact of the matter is that both Hamilton and Madison, who disagreed on just about everything, agreed that the enumeration of specific powers to the Congress in the Constitution meant that Congressional power was limited to only those areas, and that it defied logic (as it does) to enumerate powers if, as some falsely claim (you) Congressional powers have no limits.

    Thomes Jefferson, noted in one of his inaugural addresses that the Constitution does not authorize the Congress to spend federal money on public education. He therefore petitioned Congress to introduce an Amendment to the Constitution authorizing same. Congress agreed. Congress agreed that there was no authorization, and they neither passed an amendment nor spent the money.

    Because Congressional power is limited.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Watch me blow your mind. Stick with me, I know it will be tough.

    Arguing from authority: Stating your stance on something and then pointing out that an authority figure agreed with your stance.

    This type of argument can be flawed, because it assumes that the authority figure is right.
    Oh, good. YOu can find the defition of logic jargon on line.

    Can you find the Constitution on line?


    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Here's what's happening here:
    You're arguing that someone else said up is down, so spilled drinks land on the ceiling. Since no one walks on the ceiling, it must be okay.

    I can see what you're doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    I might not like the decisions in Butler or Wickard, but they are the law as it stands and aren't likely to be overturned anytime soon.
    You LOVE the false decision in Butler.

    And no, it's not the law.

    Laws are written by legislatures and signed by executives.

    What you just called a "law" is a judicial decision invalidating Constitutional law.
    Last edited by Scarecrow Akhbar; 07-03-09 at 05:19 PM.

  4. #134
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    Re: Washington to California: Drop dead

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    From Wikipedia: "An admirer of British political systems, Hamilton emphasized strong central government and implied powers, under which the new U.S. Congress funded the national debt, assumed state debts, created a national bank, and established an import tariff and whiskey tax."

    Sounds like no libertarian that I know.
    I didn't say he was a libertarian. I called him a "libtard" as a parody of the fact that some people on here tend to call everyone who expresses a view they disagree with a name like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Still arguing from authority, I see, since you have neither logic nor Constitution on your side.

    The fact of the matter is that both Hamilton and Madison, who disagreed on just about everything, agreed that the enumeration of specific powers to the Congress in the Constitution meant that Congressional power was limited to only those areas, and that it defied logic (as it does) to enumerate powers if, as some falsely claim (you) Congressional powers have no limits.
    Technically correct, though you fail to mention that the enumerated powers that Hamilton believed in were far broader than those of Madison:

    The two primary authors of the Federalist Papers essays set forth two separate, conflicting theories:

    * the narrower view of James Madison that spending must be at least tangentially tied to one of the other specifically enumerated powers, such as regulating interstate or foreign commerce, or providing for the military, as the General Welfare Clause is not a specific grant of power, but a statement of purpose qualifying the power to tax;[15][16] and

    * the broader view of Alexander Hamilton that spending is an enumerated power that Congress may exercise independently to benefit the general welfare, such as to assist national needs in agriculture or education, provided that the spending is general in nature and does not favor any specific section of the country over any other.
    [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxing_and_Spending_Clause]Taxing and Spending Clause - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

    Thomes Jefferson, noted in one of his inaugural addresses that the Constitution does not authorize the Congress to spend federal money on public education. He therefore petitioned Congress to introduce an Amendment to the Constitution authorizing same. Congress agreed. Congress agreed that there was no authorization, and they neither passed an amendment nor spent the money.

    Because Congressional power is limited.
    Congress also authorized the expenditure of federal funds on a Congressional minister on the same day that they enacted the First Amendment. Does that mean that all our future decisions on spending and religion have to be based around that contradictory fact?

    You're arguing that someone else said up is down, so spilled drinks land on the ceiling. Since no one walks on the ceiling, it must be okay.

    I can see what you're doing.
    If you think that's what I'm arguing, you very clearly can't.


    You LOVE the false decision in Butler.
    Link?

    And no, it's not the law.

    Laws are written by legislatures and signed by executives.

    What you just called a "law" is a judicial decision invalidating Constitutional law.
    And yet it's the law of the land, which is what I said. Sorry you don't like it and are doing your best to ignore reality.
    Last edited by RightinNYC; 07-04-09 at 06:56 PM.
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  5. #135
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    Re: Washington to California: Drop dead

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Mass worker exodus probably won't happen, but when someone is training for a job, which will he eventually apply for? The one that pays more, of course.

    You ignored my example about teen employment. Black teens now are twice as unemployed as white teens whereas previously they had roughly the same unemployment rate. This shows that (as expected) minimum wage is a barrier to entry into the job market. If your skills are not worth the minimum wage then why should you be hired? Most people don't make minimum wage, but if you don't have much education and can't get job experience then you're not going to make much money in the future. Guess which groups this hurts the most.
    If you don't have skills you shouldn't be hired. We should be investing in better education and training to ensure that all of our children, regardless of race, have the same opportuinity to become skilled laborers instead of squabling over the minimum wage. If minimum wage is preventing unskilled workers from being hired then I say keep it.
    “Justitia suum cuique distribuit” Justice renders to every one his due

    - Cicero

  6. #136
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    Re: Washington to California: Drop dead

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    You ignored my example about teen employment. Black teens now are twice as unemployed as white teens whereas previously they had roughly the same unemployment rate.
    Do you have a link for this?

    edit: Teenage unemployment figures are also very dubious. To be considered unemployed, you have to be seeking fulltime employment yet be unable to find it. The fact that huge portions of the teenage population are not seeking full time employment renders those numbers somewhat unreliable.
    Last edited by RightinNYC; 07-04-09 at 07:45 PM.
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  7. #137
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    Re: Washington to California: Drop dead

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Do you have a link for this?

    edit: Teenage unemployment figures are also very dubious. To be considered unemployed, you have to be seeking fulltime employment yet be unable to find it. The fact that huge portions of the teenage population are not seeking full time employment renders those numbers somewhat unreliable.
    What about people who are not teenagers, who also are seeking part-time employment. Such as, say, if one or more members of a household want part-time work to assist with finances?

    If such persons cannot find a part-time position, does that also not count as being unemployed?
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

  8. #138
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    Re: Washington to California: Drop dead

    Quote Originally Posted by wbreese91 View Post
    If minimum wage is preventing unskilled workers from being hired then I say keep it.
    So you're happy with people with no skills being prevented from getting a job where they can get the skills to move up?

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Washington to California: Drop dead

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    So you're happy with people with no skills being prevented from getting a job where they can get the skills to move up?
    I think that in some places, there are buisnesses perfectly willing to train an unskilled or low skill person on the job, and pay them more (although only a little more) than minimum wage. Alot of those jobs do not appeal to people, however.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

  10. #140
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    Re: Washington to California: Drop dead

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Do you have a link for this?

    edit: Teenage unemployment figures are also very dubious. To be considered unemployed, you have to be seeking fulltime employment yet be unable to find it. The fact that huge portions of the teenage population are not seeking full time employment renders those numbers somewhat unreliable.
    This is the closest I can find right now.

    Minimum Wage: Yet Another GOP Retreat

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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