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Claim: Leftist leader assassinated in Honduras

Cold Highway

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Citing a report from Mexico’s Notimex news service, the blog reports that Cesar Ham, presidential candidate and leader of the Democratic Unification of Honduras party, was killed while resisting arrest in the early hours of Sunday morning, as the Honduran military fanned out to arrest leftist leaders throughout the country, including President Manuel Zelaya and the country’s chancellor, Patricia Rodas.

Uh oh, opposition leaders being arrested for crimes that have yet to be proven. This does not bode well for liberal Hondurians.

Raw Story Claim: Leftist leader assassinated in Honduras
 
This is scary indeed. Chile and Argentina both have had democratic governments toppled by right wing military regimes, followed by ruthless campaigns to eradicate leftist influences.

I hope Honduras is not going down the same path.
 
Chaves is threatening military action and Obama is "concerned"..... :lol:


My concern is my cigars.
 
Zelaya is an ally of Chavez's, so that doesn't exactly endorse him, or any of the other Leftist leaders in Honduras as being the, "good guys".

Chavez supports FARC, so it's not unreasonable to believe that Zelaya also supports FARC, not to mention FARC is allowed to operate in Honduras.
 
What conceivable relation could that have to an action that is at its core anti-democratic? Chavez is of course also democratically elected and significantly more libertarian in nature than popularly conceived, but even that isn't directly relevant here.
 
This is scary indeed. Chile and Argentina both have had democratic governments toppled by right wing military regimes, followed by ruthless campaigns to eradicate leftist influences.

I hope Honduras is not going down the same path.

Maybe it would have been a good idea not to push through an unconstitutional referendum to ignore the limitations of the elections term you may rule. This was the reason for the military coup.
 
What conceivable relation could that have to an action that is at its core anti-democratic? Chavez is of course also democratically elected and significantly more libertarian in nature than popularly conceived, but even that isn't directly relevant here.

Chavez is as democratically elected as Ahmedinejad is.

I think the most important thing to note in all this is that PBO all but ignored the freedom movement against the Dictators in Iran, claiming that he didn't want to meddle, yet didn't midn meddling in an attempt to prop Zelaya's presidency. Doesn't take long to put two-n-two together.
 
I believe there is dispute as to the constitutionality of that action, though I don't see any ethical deficiencies inherent in that proposal.
 
I believe there is dispute as to the constitutionality of that action, though I don't see any ethical deficiencies inherent in that proposal.

Sorry, but we are not to judge the action, the highest court in Honduras is, which stated it was unconstitutional. You can think whatever you wish, you can think that this is wrong, however you cannot ignore the independent judiciary and the parliament and claiming yourself to be democratically legitimated.
 
Sorry, but we are not to judge the action, the highest court in Honduras is, which stated it was unconstitutional. You can think whatever you wish, you can think that this is wrong, however you cannot ignore the independent judiciary and the parliament and claiming yourself to be democratically legitimated.

Their analysis may be legally binding in some regards, but is not immune from independent review. As it were, what still amounts to an effectively anti-democratic removal likely remains illegal and is undoubtedly unethical.
 
Then post sound evidence of election fraud on Chavez's part.

Sure, no problem. In turn, post sound evidence supporting the legitimacy of Chavez's election. Thank you.

And that election was so rigged in advance in favor of Chavez that the European Union (EU) refused to play an observer’s role, NewsMax reported at the time.


"Unfortunately, it has not been possible to secure with the Venezuelan electoral authorities the conditions to carry out an observation in line with the Union’s standard methodology,” according to a Wall Street Journal report shortly after the election.

Voting Machines Used in 'Rigged' Chavez Election


Study shows how Hugo Chavez rigged elections in Venezuela

A statistical study done by two Venezuelan scientists, Maria M. Febres Cordero and Bernardo Marquez, has determined that Hugo Chavez alleged victory in the recall referendum of 2004 was unlikely. The reports concludes by saying "the Venezuelan opposition has statistical evidence to reject the official results given by the CNE. The irregularities detected were observed consistently in numerous voting centers and the magnitude of the irregularities imply that the official results do not reflect the intention of voters with statistical confidence."

Alek Boyd: Study shows how Hugo Chavez rigged elections in Venezuela
 
Their analysis may be legally binding in some regards, but is not immune from independent review. As it were, what still amounts to an effectively anti-democratic removal likely remains illegal and is undoubtedly unethical.

The Honduran congress obviously wasn't going to sit back and allow a dictator to take control of the government, on a technicality.
 
The problem this poses, is the destabilization of the whole region. Ortega in Nicaragua is a leftist leader. If the military takes over the government, there will hordes of refugees fleeing into Guatemala and Nicaragua, to avoid the certain oppression of the people.
 
The problem this poses, is the destabilization of the whole region. Ortega in Nicaragua is a leftist leader. If the military takes over the government, there will hordes of refugees fleeing into Guatemala and Nicaragua, to avoid the certain oppression of the people.

The military hasn't taken over the government. The Congress used the military as a tool to arrest the president who has been impeached. Probably not by the book, but obviously impeached. It's been determined by the legislative body in Honduras that this was a legal act. Kinda hard to argue with that.
 
Sure, no problem. In turn, post sound evidence supporting the legitimacy of Chavez's election. Thank you.

So the first thing you have for us are allegations from the openly biased NewsMax, themselves unsourced or documented by more independent and objective observers. I haven't seen your study that utilized cluster analysis before, so I'll have to research it more before I can comment on that.

The Honduran congress obviously wasn't going to sit back and allow a dictator to take control of the government, on a technicality.

There was no "government takeover" for you to refer to. Even if his agenda was implemented to the fullest extent, it merely involved alleviation of excessively restrictive term limits, which is not ethically unsound, whatever its disputed constitutional status.
 
So the first thing you have for us are allegations from the openly biased NewsMax, themselves unsourced or documented by more independent and objective observers. I haven't seen your study that utilized cluster analysis before, so I'll have to research it more before I can comment on that.

Anything supporting the legitimacy of Chavez's election?



There was no "government takeover" for you to refer to. Even if his agenda was implemented to the fullest extent, it merely involved alleviation of excessively restrictive term limits, which is not ethically unsound, whatever its disputed constitutional status.

When a president, who is booty buddies with more than one dictator in the region, attempts to illegally remove term limits, it's safe to consider that the beginning of a hostile/illegal takeover of the government. Obviously, that's what the Honduran Congress did.
 
Anything supporting the legitimacy of Chavez's election?





When a president, who is booty buddies with more than one dictator in the region, attempts to illegally remove term limits, it's safe to consider that the beginning of a hostile/illegal takeover of the government. Obviously, that's what the Honduran Congress did.

If it is going down, as you say it has, then why are world leaders calling for Zelaya to be placed back as president?
 
Their analysis may be legally binding in some regards, but is not immune from independent review. As it were, what still amounts to an effectively anti-democratic removal likely remains illegal and is undoubtedly unethical.

You can state that for yourself but your moral codices could differ from those of others, that is why we have laws. The removal may be legal, I do not know what actions the Hondurian constitution implements against such a way of undergoing the constitution.
 
If it is going down, as you say it has, then why are world leaders calling for Zelaya to be placed back as president?

What world leaders? Chavez? Castro? I take their oppostion to this situation as a sign that the Honduran congress did the right thing.
 
Anything supporting the legitimacy of Chavez's election?

You didn't post the requested information about the alleged illegitimacy of his election. You posted an openly biased source that made apparently baseless allegations about the recall (not any of his elections), as well as a study that I've not yet had time to thoroughly examine and thus cannot yet comment on. Post information that provides sound evidence of the illegitimacy of Chavez's elections rather than overtly biased sources. That should be a hint for you not to post anything from Sumate.

When a president, who is booty buddies with more than one dictator in the region, attempts to illegally remove term limits, it's safe to consider that the beginning of a hostile/illegal takeover of the government. Obviously, that's what the Honduran Congress did.

Not at all. There was not a clear or apparent constitutional process for his removal even at the early stage of this dispute, let alone a provision for his violent removal and deportation. If you're concerned about constitutional violations, the forcible ousting of a democratically elected president should be of greater concern to you than a planning procedure for a nonbinding referendum. It's not clear what "dictators" you're referring to, incidentally, but in light of your previous incorporation of openly biased sources, nothing would surprise me now.
 
You didn't post the requested information about the alleged illegitimacy of his election. You posted an openly biased source that made apparently baseless allegations about the recall (not any of his elections), as well as a study that I've not yet had time to thoroughly examine and thus cannot yet comment on. Post information that provides sound evidence of the illegitimacy of Chavez's elections rather than overtly biased sources. That should be a hint for you not to post anything from Sumate.

Yes, I did. You chose to shoot the messanger. So far, you've failed to post anything, credible, or not, that support's Chavez's legitimacy.



Not at all. There was not a clear or apparent constitutional process for his removal even at the early stage of this dispute, let alone a provision for his violent removal and deportation. If you're concerned about constitutional violations, the forcible ousting of a democratically elected president should be of greater concern to you than a planning procedure for a nonbinding referendum. It's not clear what "dictators" you're referring to, incidentally, but in light of your previous incorporation of openly biased sources, nothing would surprise me now.

This is from tlmorg's article:

Zelaya was arrested and flown to Costa Rica hours before a rogue referendum he had called in defiance of Honduras' courts and Congress. His opponents claimed the vote was an attempt to remain in power after his term ends Jan. 27.
World tells Honduras to reinstate ousted president - Yahoo! News

Obviously, the courts said he couldn't do it; the congress said he couldn't do it; so, they decided to kick his butt out of office. I just don't have a problem with this.


Posted by tlmorg2:Actually, Obama and the UN council have all called for his return.

We're seeing more and more whose side PBO is on, so his opinion is becoming just as irrelevant as Chavez's and I'm not even going to go into how useless the UN is. But, ultimately, "the world", isn't calling for Zelaya's reinstatement.
 
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Yes, I did. You chose to shoot the messanger. So far, you've failed to post anything, credible, or not, that support's Chavez's legitimacy.

You have not yet posted the requested information. I asked you to post something that evidenced the illegitimacy of Chavez's elections; you instead posted something regarding the 2004 recall attempt that was overtly biased and did not provide an independent or objective source for the assertions provided therein.

Obviously, the courts said he couldn't do it; the congress said he couldn't do it; so, they decided to kick his butt out of office. I just don't have a problem with this.

That's because you evidently have a greater interest in ideological partisanship than consistent opposition to constitutional violations. You'll condemn an action so trivial as preparation for a nonbinding referendum because politically motivated individuals in the judiciary oppose it, but you'll not condemn the forcible removal and deportation of an elected head of state even though there was no clear constitutional provision for his peaceable removal.

We're seeing more and more whose side PBO is on, so his opinion is becoming just as irrelevant as Chavez's and I'm not even going to go into how useless the UN is. But, ultimately, "the world", isn't calling for Zelaya's reinstatement.

That is a factually inaccurate assertion. There has been opposition expressed to the coup by representatives of the United Nations, the Organization of American States, Paraguay, the European Union, Chile, Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Canada, Colombia, Costa Rica, Cuba, the Dominican Republic, Ecuador, El Salvador, France, Germany, Guatemala, Jamaica, Mexico, Nicaragua, Norway, Panama, Peru, Spain, the United Kingdom, the United States, Uruguay, and Venezuela. Conversely, I have not heard of support for the coup from any nation or government representatives.
 
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