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Thread: Honduran President Manuel Zelaya Is Deposed

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    Re: Honduran President Manuel Zelaya Is Deposed

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    If the President of The United States broke into the registrar's office to steal ballots and hold an illegal election, do you believe that he should be arrested?
    There is a constitutional procedure when a President commits crimes. That procedure should be followed. In the U.S., that could lead to removal from office and even criminal prosecution.

    That is not what happened in Honduras. While an impeachment would have been appropriate, he had not been impeached. Nor was he arrested and then tried. Rather, he was expelled from the country.

    FWIW, in no way do I support his actions. In fact, I strongly believe that he should have been impeached for his conduct and prosecuted for such crimes as he might have committed. My single point of contention concerns the integrity of the constitutional process, not whether or not Mr. Zelaya should govern. Unfortunately, the constitutional process was cut short with the coup.

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    Re: Honduran President Manuel Zelaya Is Deposed

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    That is not what happened in Honduras. While an impeachment would have been appropriate, he had not been impeached. Nor was he arrested and then tried. Rather, he was expelled from the country.
    Have you read Article 239 of the Honduran Constitution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Article 239
    No citizen that has already served as head of the Executive Branch can be President or Vice-President.

    Whoever violates this law or proposes its reform, as well as those that support such violation directly or indirectly, will immediately cease in their functions and will be unable to hold any public office for a period of 10 years.
    The Supreme Court ruled that what Zelaya was doing was unconstitutional and since he did not cease his functions as President, they were forced to remove him from office.

    By the Honduran Constitution, there is no impeachment process for what Zeleya did.

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    Re: Honduran President Manuel Zelaya Is Deposed

    It's about time that Mr. Obama come out in support of the new Honduran Govn. but then again what do you except for the Closet Commie.

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    Re: Honduran President Manuel Zelaya Is Deposed

    The post about the military Junta writing the constitution there is the best argument about how this is all a gray area of gobbledygook...

    But Zelaya's actions only helped make this happen, so its really hard to say when you want to start bring "what were the real underlying motivations" arguments into this...

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    Re: Honduran President Manuel Zelaya Is Deposed

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    There is a constitutional procedure when a President commits crimes. That procedure should be followed. In the U.S., that could lead to removal from office and even criminal prosecution.

    That is not what happened in Honduras. While an impeachment would have been appropriate, he had not been impeached. Nor was he arrested and then tried. Rather, he was expelled from the country.

    FWIW, in no way do I support his actions. In fact, I strongly believe that he should have been impeached for his conduct and prosecuted for such crimes as he might have committed. My single point of contention concerns the integrity of the constitutional process, not whether or not Mr. Zelaya should govern. Unfortunately, the constitutional process was cut short with the coup.
    The Congress may not have believed that there was time to go through the legal red tape, fearing that Zelaya would engage his own military forces--whoever that may have been--and seize power.

    I'm sure there was a legal process by which to remove alot of the dictators of modern times, but most of us can agree that it wouldn't have been a bad thing if a military coup had succeeded in overhtrowing people like Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Honduran President Manuel Zelaya Is Deposed

    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion89 View Post
    It's about time that Mr. Obama come out in support of the new Honduran Govn. but then again what do you except for the Closet Commie.
    What new Honduran government? It's the same government, minus the old prez.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Honduran President Manuel Zelaya Is Deposed

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    The referendum was colsolative and non binding so I cant see how Zelaya was an immediate threat. Still how is changing the constitution "disobeying" it? Were all 27 amendments to the United States constitution examples of the government "disobeying" the consitution? Should the presidents responsible have been overthrown as well?
    I don't believe that Honduras has an impeachment procedure much like Chile under Allende who, also, had a referendum against him in the Chamber of Deputies and an injunction against him by the Supreme Court of Chile, if you think about it, it actually sounds like Zelaya refused to appear before the impeachment procedure. No POTUS has ever done that so yes they should have been overthrown but not by the military, a U.S. President would step down.

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    Re: Honduran President Manuel Zelaya Is Deposed

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Have you read Article 239 of the Honduran Constitution?
    Several points:

    1. Article 239 does not mandate expulsion from Honduras.
    2. President Zelaya had yet to hold the referendum.
    3. President Zelaya had made no proposals to change Article 239.

    Until an actual proposal was made or the referendum was held, there was no violation of Article 239. Furthermore, Article 239 only states that when that article is violated, the person "will immediately cease in their functions and will be unable to hold any public office for a period of 10 years." Nothing in Article 239 calls for expulsion. Moreover, no provision in the constitution mandates expulsion.

    Hence, even as President Zelaya had yet to violate Article 239 until he had carried forward the referendum or submitted a proposal to change Article 239, those who expelled him took liberties that have no constitutional basis.

    Given the facts of the case, I doubt that the U.S. or Honduras' neighbors will recognize the post-coup government.

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    Re: Honduran President Manuel Zelaya Is Deposed

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Several points:

    1. Article 239 does not mandate expulsion from Honduras.
    2. President Zelaya had yet to hold the referendum.
    3. President Zelaya had made no proposals to change Article 239.

    Until an actual proposal was made or the referendum was held, there was no violation of Article 239. Furthermore, Article 239 only states that when that article is violated, the person "will immediately cease in their functions and will be unable to hold any public office for a period of 10 years." Nothing in Article 239 calls for expulsion. Moreover, no provision in the constitution mandates expulsion.

    Hence, even as President Zelaya had yet to violate Article 239 until he had carried forward the referendum or submitted a proposal to change Article 239, those who expelled him took liberties that have no constitutional basis.

    Given the facts of the case, I doubt that the U.S. or Honduras' neighbors will recognize the post-coup government.
    There was a violation of Article 239:

    Whoever violates this law or proposes its reform, as well as those that support such violation directly or indirectly, will immediately cease in their functions and will be unable to hold any public office for a period of 10 years.
    Calling the referendum with an eye towards rewriting the Constitution--in particular to remove the restrictions on Presidential re-election, printing ballots in Venezuela, attempting to steal the ballots after the army refused to distribute them--backed the Supreme Court, it should be noted--are at the very least indirectly supportive of Zelaya's stated desire to violate Article 239. That's all it takes.

    It is inaccurate and inappropriate to call Zelaya's removal from office on the orders of the Supreme Court a coup. It was not.

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    Re: Honduran President Manuel Zelaya Is Deposed

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Several points:

    1. Article 239 does not mandate expulsion from Honduras.
    2. President Zelaya had yet to hold the referendum.
    3. President Zelaya had made no proposals to change Article 239.

    Until an actual proposal was made or the referendum was held, there was no violation of Article 239. Furthermore, Article 239 only states that when that article is violated, the person "will immediately cease in their functions and will be unable to hold any public office for a period of 10 years." Nothing in Article 239 calls for expulsion. Moreover, no provision in the constitution mandates expulsion.

    Hence, even as President Zelaya had yet to violate Article 239 until he had carried forward the referendum or submitted a proposal to change Article 239, those who expelled him took liberties that have no constitutional basis.

    Given the facts of the case, I doubt that the U.S. or Honduras' neighbors will recognize the post-coup government.
    He attempted to carry out an illegal referendum of the Constitution in order to allow himself to be el presidente for life, when the current Honduran Constitution only allows for the Congress to call for an amendment to the Constitution. And FYI the post-coup government is the government more than Zelaya is IE the Chamber of Deputies and the Supreme Court. Sorry but President =/= Dictator nor does it = the government.

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