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Thread: Iran accuses CIA of killing protestor Neda

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    Re: Iran accuses CIA of killing protestor Neda

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Whatcha talkin' about.
    CIA is a government ruled agency, the American government represent the American people.
    Hence, the CIA represents the American people.
    It's fallacious to assume that matters are so straightforward. That might work if I were a republican or favored representative democracy. I'm not. Being a proponent of participatory direct democracy myself, I'm aware of the isolation from actual control that the citizenry suffers, and the apathy towards politics that delegation of all power to distant "representatives" subject only to periodic election breeds. I can also recognize that the very nature of the CIA involves extremely limited popular control over their functions and activities, if any. For example, I don't believe that there would have been popular support for the numerous anti-democratic regime changes that the CIA leadership has sponsored.

    Quote Originally Posted by SgtRock View Post
    Do you not realize Irans leaders are in damage control mode. They are attempting to blame the west for their tyranny. Do you honestly believe that the CIA killed Neda? Or is it your modus operandi to blame the United States for everything wrong with the world?
    What did I just tell you? It's crude and obfuscatory to claim that "America" or "the U.S." is responsible for any specific action or policy because those specific actions and policies are determined by various elements of the American government. I already stated that I don't believe there was CIA involvement in the current events in Iran (though individuals within the agency are undoubtedly hoping to exploit what's occurred), but it's also similarly fallacious to simply refer to "Iran's leaders" as though they were one homogenous block with "one will, one resolve, one cause," when it's in fact the case that there are numerous elements and interest groups within the current leadership with various motives.

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    Re: Iran accuses CIA of killing protestor Neda

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    It's fallacious to assume that matters are so straightforward.
    It's fallacious to assume that I was assuming anything.
    I was speaking of an existing fact, nothing more and nothing less.
    You can't fight a fact.
    That might work if I were a republican or favored representative democracy. I'm not. Being a proponent of participatory direct democracy myself, I'm aware of the isolation from actual control that the citizenry suffers, and the apathy towards politics that delegation of all power to distant "representatives" subject only to periodic election breeds. I can also recognize that the very nature of the CIA involves extremely limited popular control over their functions and activities, if any. For example, I don't believe that there would have been popular support for the numerous anti-democratic regime changes that the CIA leadership has sponsored.
    Your rejection of the elected government doesn't matter and is irrelevant.
    Your rejection of the government doesn't deny its representation of the People as a whole.
    The people in a democratic nation are represented by the elected government, and this is where this argument ends.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

    Dante Alighieri

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    Re: Iran accuses CIA of killing protestor Neda

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Your rejection of the elected government doesn't matter and is irrelevant.
    Your rejection of the government doesn't deny its representation of the People as a whole.
    The people in a democratic nation are represented by the elected government, and this is where this argument ends.
    Yeah...not so much. Your baseless assertions are useless without supporting arguments. The fact that the concealed activities of intelligence agencies are not subject to popular control or democratic management is a reality, and the reason that previous government agencies thought it necessary to plan false-flag operations to deceive the American public.

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    Re: Iran accuses CIA of killing protestor Neda

    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion89 View Post
    I can tell you with about a 99.5% that the CIA doesn't have any Wet Operations going on in Iran if so they wouldn't have target Neda.
    How could you possibly know this?
    Education.

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    Re: Iran accuses CIA of killing protestor Neda

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    I did hear that she was shot by a plainclothesman, which led some to immediately conclude that he was a member of the Basij militia, along with the fact that there were allegations that he was briefly captured. However, I'd also been under the impression that it had been relatively conclusively determined that she was shot in the chest. I wouldn't be very surprised if the CIA was responsible, as they've been complicit in anti-democratic actions in Iran in the past, of course (Operation Ajax), and other agencies in the upper spheres of government have been willing to engage in false-flag operations in the past (Operation Northwoods), but I doubt that there's any CIA involvement in the turmoil in Iran at the moment, though they're undoubtedly hoping to exploit it.
    Are you actually serious that you would even think that the CIA would kill some ininocent young woman !! I don't even think that a rouge CIA operative would be dumb enough to concoct such a plot. I am seathing at the thought that anyone would even think that much less write something like.

    For God sakes man we are Americans not some Russian, Chinese or North Korean Communist savages !!! The CIA may have knocked over a few dictaors or countries but for God'S SAKE NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER AN INNOCENT young woman.

    Give me a break !!!
    Last edited by F107HyperSabr; 06-28-09 at 06:04 PM.
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    Re: Iran accuses CIA of killing protestor Neda

    Quote Originally Posted by F107HyperSabr View Post
    Are you actually serious that you would even think that the CIA would kill some ininocent young woman !! I am seathing at the thought that anyone would even think that much less write something like.

    For God sakes man we are Americans not some Russian, Chiness or North Korean Communist savages !!! The CIA may have knocked over a few dictaors or countries but for God'S SAKE NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER AN INNOCENT young woman.

    Give me a break !!!
    Give me a break. You can speak of the CIA "knocking over dictators" to Iranian prime minister Mohammad Mossadeq, Guatemalan president Jacobo Arbenz, or Chilean president Salvador Allende, all democratically elected leaders removed with CIA backing. And you can speak of the humane methods of the CIA to those who lived under the Shah, Augusto Pinochet, Somoza, Noriega, the Contrast, etc. And speak of the benevolence of American governmental agencies to those familiar with Operation Northwoods, the proposed plan of the Joint Chiefs of Staff to conduct bombings against American targets and subsequently blame these actions on the Cuban government, thus warranting an invasion.

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    Re: Iran accuses CIA of killing protestor Neda

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    Give me a break. You can speak of the CIA "knocking over dictators" to Iranian prime minister Mohammad Mossadeq, Guatemalan president Jacobo Arbenz, or Chilean president Salvador Allende, all democratically elected leaders removed with CIA backing. And you can speak of the humane methods of the CIA to those who lived under the Shah, Augusto Pinochet, Somoza, Noriega, the Contrast, etc. And speak of the benevolence of American governmental agencies to those familiar with Operation Northwoods, the proposed plan of the Joint Chiefs of Staff to conduct bombings against American targets and subsequently blame these actions on the Cuban government, thus warranting an invasion.
    Yes we did knock over some bad guys I will admit that. Yet we did it for the best reasons. That Cuban thing about hurting Americans I just cannot believe and have not seen even a shred of rumor that it could be CONCIEVABLE.

    That's like believing that an American administration could plot and carry out 9/11. Come on !! As much as I think that Cheney has an evil streak a mile long and that he was closely involved with the outing of VAERIE FLAME he is not that much of a miscreant to try and concoct 9/11. Just an example I do not in any way say that you think that Cheney would.

    And Shrub, well so much for that!
    I do not recall the Viet Cong asking me if I was a natural born or Naturalized American before they shot at me, they just shot at all of us f107HyperSabr

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    Re: Iran accuses CIA of killing protestor Neda

    and yes we had the CIA do some silly stuff but we did not do absolute evil. Yes we kicked a few dictators but they were real bad guys and it was best for their people. Putting the Shah in was actually a restoration of an ancient monarchy. I do feel bad that we knocked over a democratically elected guy. Sometimes things are just not clean. You know like making sausage. But when you grill those Brats ok all is good !!!
    I do not recall the Viet Cong asking me if I was a natural born or Naturalized American before they shot at me, they just shot at all of us f107HyperSabr

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    Re: Iran accuses CIA of killing protestor Neda

    Quote Originally Posted by F107HyperSabr View Post
    Yes we did knock over some bad guys I will admit that.
    "Bad guys"? It was a matter of imperial ambitions within the CIA removing democratically elected heads of state, often for the purpose of replacing them with strong-arm dictators.

    Quote Originally Posted by F107HyperSabr View Post
    Yet we did it for the best reasons. hat Cuban thing about hurting Americans I just cannot believe and have not seen even a shred of rumor that it could be true.
    The extent of the information about Operation Northwoods was revealed when numerous documents were declassified (1521 pages) by the John F. Kennedy Assassination Records Review Board. As put in Jim Wolf's Pentagon Planned 1960s Cuban 'Terror Campaign:

    The Pentagon drew up plans to mount a bloody "terror campaign'' in the United States 35 years ago and planned to blame it on Fidel Castro to justify a U.S. invasion of Cuba, according to newly declassified documents...[S]chemes included complex deceptions that would give the impression the Cubans had shot down a civilian U.S. airliner or a Cuban MiG had attacked a U.S. ship. "The courses of action which follow are a preliminary submission suitable only for planning purposes,'' Pentagon strategists said in an annex to a March 12, 1962, report about Cuba options to the military Joint Chiefs of Staff. "We could develop a Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other cities and even in Washington,'' they said in the document stamped "top secret.'' "The terror campaign could be pointed at Cuban refugees seeking haven in the United States. We could sink a boatload of Cubans en route to Florida. (real or simulated). "We could foster attempts on lives of Cuban refugees in the United States even to the extent of wounding in instances to be widely published,'' the strategists added. "Exploding a few plastic bombs in carefully chosen spots, the arrest of (supposed) Cuban agents and the release of prepared documents substantiating Cuban involvement also would be helpful in projecting the idea of an irresponsible government,'' the planners wrote to the Joint Chiefs.
    Along with the CIA-planned Operation Mongoose (a plan that effectively involved state terrorist efforts in Cuba in which numerous attacks on both civilian and military targets were conducted, as well as numerous assassination attempts against Castro), Operation Northwoods was a component of a general plan by top governmental agencies to destabilize and ultimately violently remove the Castro government.

    Quote Originally Posted by F107HyperSabr View Post
    That's like believing that an American administration could plot and carry out 9/11. Come on !! As much as I think that Cheney has an evil streak a mile long and that he was closely involved with the outing of VAERIE FLAME he is not that much of a miscreant to try and concoct 9/11. Just an example I do not in any way say that you think that Cheney would.

    And Shrub, well so much for that!
    Actually, I think there are many other more important reasons why it's unlikely that the ruling administration was responsible for 9/11 than their own benevolence or incompetence.

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    Re: Iran accuses CIA of killing protestor Neda


    That is all.

    Or not.

    The US and it's dealings with the rest of the world is not perfect, and it is unreasonable to expect such.

    Overall, IMO, it has in many cases turned out for the best, however.
    Last edited by The Mark; 06-28-09 at 06:52 PM.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

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