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House narrowly passes major energy-climate bill

phattonez said:
But we're not at levels anywhere close to that.
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probably true, generally speaking....
I don't know what important species are on the edge now, if any.
GW, true or not, man made or not, is not my reason for wanting conservation anyway. We need to stop the excess consumption of limited resources, period....
 
UtahBill said:
We need to stop the excess consumption of limited resources, period....
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It's tough to do that though when the government owns it. They keep it at the same price and so we don't change our consumption habits. Whereas if private companies owned the supplies, they would increase prices as resources diminish.

I'm mostly thinking of water right here.
 
I have not read all of these threads, so if this has been addressed then my apologies. From all I have read, the energy sector of the U.S. economy has long wanted some sort of energy bill passed, one that, like this bill, provides tax relief to companies that re-engineer with cleaner technology and provides a time table to comply. The reason for this is that they expect that eventually such measures will be necessary anyway, as it also allows these companies the ability to become more efficient and gain government dollars is doing so through the breaks and certain subsidies. Complaince also is good PR for energy companies, which will be able to look like better environmental citizens, while reaping the benefits of the newest technology.

There was a story on NPR last week about a guy in Texas, who after working off and on at the oil rigs, depending on the price of oil, had began training to be a wind energy tech, which will pay him as much money as he was making on the rig, yet will provide a steady salary, instead of the fluctuating one he recieved in the oil industry. So there are multiple sides to this bill, and while costs may go-up slightly, this will save us money in the long term.
 
UtahBill said:
Parts of this bill are a good thing, especially the part that the Architecture 2030 group got put in it. This will require new national building codes so that builders/contractors/subcontractors have to do it right, instead of just doing what will pass an inspection by the local building inspector who is the mayor's idiot son-in-law who needed a job...
As for all the undesireable add-ons, and the parts that might not work, I suppose lack of funding will kill those parts?
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Some are and some aren't. For instance, the requirement for cool roofs is absurd. Oak Ridge National Laboratory has a software package that calculates energy savings with cool roofs. There are no savings in energy for most of the country because the loss of winter heat absorption results in more heating energy costs than were saved from cooling energy cost savings.

Besides that, cool roofs are only rated at the time of installation. Six months later, their reflectance and emissivity has dropped in half because of dirt accumulation. It can be power washed at great expense and damage to the roof system, but it never regains full reflectance again.
 
Gill said:
Some are and some aren't. For instance, the requirement for cool roofs is absurd. Oak Ridge National Laboratory has a software package that calculates energy savings with cool roofs. There are no savings in energy for most of the country because the loss of winter heat absorption results in more heating energy costs than were saved from cooling energy cost savings.

Besides that, cool roofs are only rated at the time of installation. Six months later, their reflectance and emissivity has dropped in half because of dirt accumulation. It can be power washed at great expense and damage to the roof system, but it never regains full reflectance again.
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Very good point. I was not aware of that downside to the roof. I ask though, do you not think that this bill helps guide the energy industry who have been asking for the government to give them the direction they should go? Many have argued that without such a bill, the power companies who are very outdated would never change, until they knew exactly what changes they must make to comply with law, and in order to spend the necessary money to update their systems. I find it hard to look at this bill in a negative light, when many of those that are to be regulated, asked for it.
 
tlmorg02 said:
Very good point. I was not aware of that downside to the roof. I ask though, do you not think that this bill helps guide the energy industry who have been asking for the government to give them the direction they should go? Many have argued that without such a bill, the power companies who are very outdated would never change, until they knew exactly what changes they must make to comply with law, and in order to spend the necessary money to update their systems. I find it hard to look at this bill in a negative light, when many of those that are to be regulated, asked for it.
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None of that matters. Energy companies will simply pass the higher costs along to consumers. It is estimated that the average electric bill will rise almost $3,500. per year here in Kentucky because of our reliance on the coal industry. How many people can afford that? The bill admits that utility costs will skyrocket, because it has a provision in it to deposit money to those below 150% (I believe that's the correct number) of the poverty level directly into their checking accounts by direct deposit.

Just think of all the layers of energy costs in everything we buy. The ear of corn you ate for dinner last night was tilled, planted, fertilized, and harvested by farm equipment. It was hauled to the distributor by truck. It was hauled to the grocery on truck. It was kept cool by refrigeration at every step. Each one of these steps will result in increased costs for that simple ear of corn.

This will end up being a massive fraud bill. Cap and trade is a gold mine to those that want to gin the system. If you look at the bill, there are hundreds of opportunities to get rich, from being official home energy auditors to selling carbon rights for farmland and forests. There's so many layers of firms to approve everything from tree planting to appliances to insulation to windows that it's going to be a paperwork nightmare.

Obama said he would put the coal industry on which this country relies for electricity out of business. This bill is his first step.
 
tlmorg02 said:
Very good point. I was not aware of that downside to the roof. I ask though, do you not think that this bill helps guide the energy industry who have been asking for the government to give them the direction they should go? Many have argued that without such a bill, the power companies who are very outdated would never change, until they knew exactly what changes they must make to comply with law, and in order to spend the necessary money to update their systems. I find it hard to look at this bill in a negative light, when many of those that are to be regulated, asked for it.
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color of roofing is a minor issue compared to all the other features of home construction that need to be addressed. But them govt scientists have to study SOMETHING to earn their pay...:lol:
Many of my neighbors "up the hill" with view lots have a LOT of glass facing due west, for the view over the valley. Problem is, their poor distribution of glass causes them to use a lot more AC than other homes, especially considering that older homes in the Cache Valley, Utah area don't have AC, never needed it, don't want it, and at best use a little evaporative cooling during the few really hot months of the year....

As for asking for it, I agree, some asked for it knowingly, not like my kid who challenges my parental authority and is "asking for it"...:2razz:
 
disneydude said:
Americans have a clear picture of which party they should vote for in the next election depending upon how they feel about the environment.
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Yes, please, tell us how Democrats and Republicans feel on the environment in simple terms based on this one vote. I can't wait to hear it

Redress said:
And hopefully the American people know what is over the top partisan rhetoric.
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Agreed, but you didn't seem to have any issue with over the top partisan rhetoric just slightly better disguised by Disneydude trying to imply that Republicans don't care about the environment.
 
UtahBill said:
color of roofing is a minor issue compared to all the other features of home construction that need to be addressed. But them govt scientists have to study SOMETHING to earn their pay...:lol:
Many of my neighbors "up the hill" with view lots have a LOT of glass facing due west, for the view over the valley. Problem is, their poor distribution of glass causes them to use a lot more AC than other homes, especially considering that older homes in the Cache Valley, Utah area don't have AC, never needed it, don't want it, and at best use a little evaporative cooling during the few really hot months of the year....

As for asking for it, I agree, some asked for it knowingly, not like my kid who challenges my parental authority and is "asking for it"...:2razz:
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It may seem minor to you until you are forced to have a white roof installed on your house, raising your heating bills in the winter. A "white" roof doesn't even meet the cool roof standards, it must be a special white reflective material, greatly increasing the cost of your roof.
 
Gill said:
It may seem minor to you until you are forced to have a white roof installed on your house, raising your heating bills in the winter. A "white" roof doesn't even meet the cool roof standards, it must be a special white reflective material, greatly increasing the cost of your roof.
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what city requires white roofing? on what kinds of buildings?
 
Gill said:
It's part of this energy bill.
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really? got a link?
I doubt they can make us retrofit, or demand white roofs as part of new building codes.....
SO, I will believe it when it happens.....
 
obvious Child said:
Keynes. And your opinion is rather irrelevant. Especially when the ideal world you want leads to 1990s Somalia when applied to reality.
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1990's Somalia recognized natural rights? I didn't know that.
 
UtahBill said:
you only need basic algebra to understand basic electricitiy.....calculus is for engineer level and above...and even most of them never use it once out of college....
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Yea, but once you get to impedance and all that stuff you need to know calc.

I'm transferring in about a year or so to earn my mechatronics engineering degree.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
Yea, but once you get to impedance and all that stuff you need to know calc.

I'm transferring in about a year or so to earn my mechatronics engineering degree.
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Is that so you can play Mech War?
 
UtahBill said:
really? got a link?
I doubt they can make us retrofit, or demand white roofs as part of new building codes.....
SO, I will believe it when it happens.....
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Here you go. It's in here. If you read it all, you've done more than the members of the House were allowed to do.

Text of H.R.2454 as Reported in House: American... OpenCongress

There are already similar laws for the state of California (Title 24) and the city of Chicago. Any new or repaired roof must be rated as a cool roof.
 
Obama is choosing to be weak

FT.com / Columnists / Clive Crook - Obama is choosing to be weak

This page will show that I am not alone in my condemnation of the direction the Amateur in Chief Obama is taking the Country and the ultimate destruction of the Economy and to me the Health Care System is next on is HIT LIST.

January 2008... San Francisco Chronicle interview: Obama said: "Energy Prices Will Skyrocket Under My Cap and Trade Plan"
 
Ethereal said:
1990's Somalia recognized natural rights? I didn't know that.
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Don't worry about him, he's not interested in having an honest debate.
 
UtahBill said:
really? got a link?
I doubt they can make us retrofit, or demand white roofs as part of new building codes.....
SO, I will believe it when it happens.....
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I don't think they can force you retrofit your home, however, id you want to sell your home and it doesn't meet the government's standards, you'll lose your ass on the sell.

I'm waiting for a, "gas guzzler", style tax to be placed on homes that don't meet the government requirements for efficiency.
 
Gill said:
There are already similar laws for the state of California (Title 24) and the city of Chicago. Any new or repaired roof must be rated as a cool roof.
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What about the impact to cultural significance of art?

I mean, would "Cat on a Cool White Roof" have been as big a hit as the one on the hot tin roof?
 
apdst said:
I don't think they can force you retrofit your home, however, id you want to sell your home and it doesn't meet the government's standards, you'll lose your ass on the sell.
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From what I understand they cannot make you retrofit your home, however you will be required to have your home inspected by the fed before your allowed to sell it. If it does not meet the new standards you cannot place your home on the market.
 
Baralis said:
From what I understand they cannot make you retrofit your home, however you will be required to have your home inspected by the fed before your allowed to sell it. If it does not meet the new standards you cannot place your home on the market.
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That's even worse than selling at a loss.

This is just nuts!
 
apdst said:
That's even worse than selling at a loss.

This is just nuts!
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Well on the bright side, part of the bill also expands credit and loaning so that people can make the needed updates. :doh We need more government pressure on banks to extend credit to homeowners. :shock:
 
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