House narrowly passes major energy-climate bill

Don't Tase Me Bro said:

It's proof that the industry has had a major negative impact on their economy and undoubtedly makes up a substantial portion of their unemployment rate, however it does not prove, nor is it in any reality, the only reason for their high unemployment rate. It does not disprove that what Caldaza reports is true.

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The problem with Caldaza's report is that it assumes the jobs would have been created in the first place. Remember that virtually the entire job lost is opportunity cost. There is no actual evidence that such jobs would have been created had there been no renewable investment. That's an entirely different animal then actual jobs being lost. Potential jobs that may have been created under some assumptions are not the same actual jobs being lost.

akyron said:

"Even as Democrats have promised that this cap-and-trade legislation won't pinch wallets, behind the scenes they've acknowledged the energy price tsunami that is coming. During the brief few days in which the bill was debated in the House Energy Committee, Republicans offered three amendments: one to suspend the program if gas hit $5 a gallon; one to suspend the program if electricity prices rose 10% over 2009; and one to suspend the program if unemployment rates hit 15%. Democrats defeated all of them."

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But what if all three are unrelated? Say terrorist attacks on several key areas cause oil prices to skyrocket. No impact from the legislation. How about if electricity prices rose because natural gas's price rose due to oil impacts? No impact from the legislation in causing that. Unemployment can rise from all sorts of things.

obvious Child said:

The problem with Caldaza's report is that it assumes the jobs would have been created in the first place. Remember that virtually the entire job lost is opportunity cost. There is no actual evidence that such jobs would have been created had there been no renewable investment

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Historical economic models are able to predict such figures fairly accurately. Whether the job is lost or a potential job is never created, the outcome is still the same, in this case, excessive unemployment.

I noticed a debate on the health bill over whether end of life treatment may be rationed for the elderly.I'm wondering if the amount of CO2 being emitted by an elderly otherwise treatable patient might enter into the bureacratic decision to not provide care, since this bill is brought to us by the same mindset.

disneydude said:

But you and your crystal ball do? :doh

you are too much

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You didn't read my caveat did you? Obviously not.

You are trusting people that had to bum rush with little debate and unread a bill through the house.

You really trust these people. Why? Because they say what makes you FEEL better.

That is all.

Can't the bill still fail in the senate?

DarkWizard12 said:

Can't the bill still fail in the senate?

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I hope so.

disneydude said:

Its nice to once again have a President that isn't afraid of Science.

The rest of the world was passing us by due to the lack of efforts of the prior administration in advancing alternative energy. Even China is exporting more solar energy than we are right now. This bill is a step in the right direction.

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LOL... President Science?
Alternative energy is such a stinker Shell got out of it.
It's subsidized to the wazoo, and can't fulfill our growing energy needs.

This is sheer madness.
But, I guess that's how one defines... Hope & Change.

.

PeteEU said:

So no, the Spanish unemployment is not because of investing heavily in green energy. In fact I would call the article a hit piece since there is very little reference material, and I suspect their "facts" came from right wing sources in Spain who have like in the US been against investing in anything green...

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You mean . . . gasp . . . someone pulled the example of Spain out of their ass and threw it out there in the hopes that nobody would question what's really going on there, and what if anything it has to do with this piece of legislation?

Hmm.

I know what to do.

Hey, ArcanaXV, lady I turn to whenever I've got a question about anything Spain: care to comment?

akyron said:

Democrats off-loading economics to pass climate change bill.-WSJ

"Waxman-Markey would cost the economy $161 billion in 2020, which is $1,870 for a family of four. As the bill's restrictions kick in, that number rises to $6,800 for a family of four by 2035.

Note also that the CBO analysis is an average for the country as a whole. It doesn't take into account the fact that certain regions and populations will be more severely hit than others -- manufacturing states more than service states; coal producing states more than states that rely on hydro or natural gas. Low-income Americans, who devote more of their disposable income to energy, have more to lose than high-income families."

"Even as Democrats have promised that this cap-and-trade legislation won't pinch wallets, behind the scenes they've acknowledged the energy price tsunami that is coming. During the brief few days in which the bill was debated in the House Energy Committee, Republicans offered three amendments: one to suspend the program if gas hit $5 a gallon; one to suspend the program if electricity prices rose 10% over 2009; and one to suspend the program if unemployment rates hit 15%. Democrats defeated all of them."

"Americans should know that those Members who vote for this climate bill are voting for what is likely to be the biggest tax in American history. Even Democrats can't repeal that reality."





U G L Y.....


If environmentalists really want to save the environment so badly they should kill themselves and provide fertlizer for the earth. Much more effective and minimizes the noxious emissions coming out of various orifices.

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In all seriousness, I think that the real debate isn't about that this caps will harm us, but weighing the chances if global warming is real or not.

I am skeptical of global warming, and I think there should be more research and provable models to see if it is real. However, I recognize that if global warming is true (and the scary predictions are accurate) then we NEED to take steps IMMEDIETLY to reduce greenhouse gases.


I get the feeling that people who are against this bill don't believe in gobal warming, and it makes alot of sense to be skeptical. Because if the predictions are true (or even have a semi large chance to be true) then the tax increase is odviously worth averting the global consquences.

I have a question.

Can, or cannot, this bill be repealed later? supposing that Obama ****s-up?

Under the bill, the government would limit heat-trapping pollution from factories, refineries and power plants and issue allowances for polluters

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Doesn't sound too bad especially considering ...

U.S. carbon dioxide emissions from the burning of fossil fuels are rising at about 1 percent a year and are predicted to continue increasing without mandatory limits.

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disneydude said:

Its nice to once again have a President that isn't afraid of Science.

The rest of the world was passing us by due to the lack of efforts of the prior administration in advancing alternative energy. Even China is exporting more solar energy than we are right now. This bill is a step in the right direction.

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[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXXZYcaSCeI]YouTube - Boehner: America Has the Right to Know the Consequences of Speaker Pelosi's Nat'l Energy Tax[/ame]

Laila said:

Doesn't sound too bad especially considering ...

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And China? Duhhhhh, I don't know and I don't care, as long as we do something really stupid and it SOUNDS good.

American said:

And China? Duhhhhh, I don't know and I don't care, as long as we do something really stupid and it SOUNDS good.

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China needs to get on board as well ofc.

Yes well if climate change only affected US and only US then i'd be happy to allow you lot to screw your living space but unfortunately it affects the world.

China already is on board. It's because it's a developing nation that we are not seeing the immediate improvements we would like from it. However, it already has a keen interest in developing green technology for the simple fact of population density. If cleaner alternatives are not implemented, then within a couple of generations everyone will be dead or suffering terrible illness.

The Mark said:

Really? I don't see that in what I read so far.

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It's supposed to be about 1300 pages long, and 300 of those pages were supposedly added at 4:00 a.m. on the day of the vote, and copies were not provided for Republicans.

disneydude said:

Americans have a clear picture of which party they should vote for in the next election depending upon how they feel about the environment.

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More like how they feel about being serfs in their own country.

If you want to help the environment feel free to do so. Why not pick up some litter along the highway, and leave governing to the informed?

One thing to remember is that C02 pollution mainly comes from coal and oil. Two resources their the supply will continue to decrease and their the demand will increase if somethings isn't done. A large part of the worlds oil is also in unstable countries and/or countries hostile to the USA. That for long term economy benefits it can be really be good to decrease the dependence of oil and coal.

apdst said:

How are they building all this green stuff if there's a credit crisis? Are those projects being paid for with cash? There are contactors in Spain that are that liquid?? I'm guessing, no.

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Yes there are. The local power companies in Europe are not exactly "poor" and are the ones that are pushing tons of money into alternative energy projects along with national governments.

TacticalEvilDan said:

You mean . . . gasp . . . someone pulled the example of Spain out of their ass and threw it out there in the hopes that nobody would question what's really going on there, and what if anything it has to do with this piece of legislation?

Hmm.

I know what to do.

Hey, ArcanaXV, lady I turn to whenever I've got a question about anything Spain: care to comment?

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Pete is absolutely right. Spain's booming economy has been closely tied to the construction and real estate sectors. When that started to collapse it not only affected the construction industry, but thousands upon thousands of other jobs that depended on it. One typical example among thousands: my mother's gardener down there is on the brink of bankruptcy due to all the customers he's lost in the last year. If people don't buy houses anymore, or are forced to sell, they obviously don't have any use for anyone to tend to their garden. He had to let his two employees go. There are countless examples just like his, not just gardeners, but house painters, carpenters, electricians, the list is endless...

BO an his fellow marxists are on their way to screw over the American middle class and the poor. We can all thank the leftists who voted for these power grabbing money grubbing a-holes.

The end of the wonderful country I once knew is coming. Goodbye America, hello Euro style socialistic sh*thole.

Don't Tase Me Bro said:

It's proof that the industry has had a major negative impact on their economy and undoubtedly makes up a substantial portion of their unemployment rate, however it does not prove, nor is it in any reality, the only reason for their high unemployment rate. It does not disprove that what Caldaza reports is true.

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Of course it does! The majority of Spanish unemployment is due to the crash in the building industry... that means over 50% of the total unemployment. There is no doubt about this, as every economist and news source agree on this, even the OECD and World Bank.

In Spain the nr. 1 industry is Tourism, followed until the crash, by construction of new homes/buildings. When the nr 2 industry collapses then it will account for a large part of the unemployment... it is freaking logic.

As for Gabriel Calzada. He is a so called "libertarian" aka a conservative and his report must be taken in that context. His report says that the Spanish investment in green technology has cost 110.000 jobs in "other industries". What he bases this on is known only to him it seems. In total there are over 40 million people in Spain and the unemployed at the moment is 4 million. 110.000 jobs out of 4 million is not by any mathematical standard "a huge part".. not even close.

But what he some what correctly states is the "eco corruption"

Corruption can be very bad. However far far far more jobs have been lost due to corruption in the building industry than anything else. Building license corruption has cost over 1 billion euros in damage to the local county of Marbella.. the Spanish version of Monte Carlo.. basically where all the uber rich go to play. Corruption in local government during the last 10 to 20 years has in part lead to the over reliance on the construction sector in Spain, since it has basically been a free for all drunk building spree where no consideration was made towards planning laws and the law in many popular areas of Spain. This corruption is now coming home to roost, with 40000+ homes in the above county of Marbella being tagged for demolition due to being illegal. And Marbella is not that big a county, population wise..

So Mr Gabriel Calzada can take his views and put them into the context of reality. I bet he is more pissed over that his conservative party has not had a chance in hell of gaining political power in Spain since the Madrid bombings and that it is the socialist (regrettably) that are getting the praise for getting industries to invest so much in alternative energy. Like it or not it is not cheap to be a the forefront of next generation alternative energy, but the cost savings for Spain in the short, medium and long run have the potential to be huge. Just imagine if half of the US energy production was from alternative energy .. imagine the amount of money saved on buying oil?!

Spain's problem is in part that it is still recovering from the Franco regime. People over 40 basically dont have the educational level expected of most employers today, and this especially goes for women who were discouraged from high education under Franco. Many of the "old ways" and laws from the Franco era are still being used and they are highly ineffective but they are also part of life here. It takes time for things to change and in the mean time those ways are costing far far more jobs than any alternative energy investment ever will do.

Spain has had systemic unemployment problem since Franco (and before) due to the laws and attitudes. For one, Spain's economic growth has been one of the highest in the western world, far far over that of the US, and yet it has a near constant 6 to 10% unemployment for decades.

So I think Gabriel Calzada should focus on such things instead of criticizing one of the good projects in Spain. Where is his criticizing of the construction industry or the telecommunications industry? Or why is he not after the conservative politicians that have cost so many jobs due to their corruption?

But I just found the report on the net and when I get time I will read it, but on the face of things stuff does not add up with the comments by Mr Calzada as reported by posters on these boards.

Arcana XV said:

Pete is absolutely right. Spain's booming economy has been closely tied to the construction and real estate sectors. When that started to collapse it not only affected the construction industry, but thousands upon thousands of other jobs that depended on it. One typical example among thousands: my mother's gardener down there is on the brink of bankruptcy due to all the customers he's lost in the last year. If people don't buy houses anymore, or are forced to sell, they obviously don't have any use for anyone to tend to their garden. He had to let his two employees go. There are countless examples just like his, not just gardeners, but house painters, carpenters, electricians, the list is endless...

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Which effects hairdressers, dog groomers, shops that sell cloths, supermarkets, ISPs, car sellers and so on. The cascade effect is huge when one of the main economic sectors of any country takes a nose dive.

disneydude said:

Its nice to once again have a President that isn't afraid of Science.

The rest of the world was passing us by due to the lack of efforts of the prior administration in advancing alternative energy. Even China is exporting more solar energy than we are right now. This bill is a step in the right direction.

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China has no such stupid "Cap In Trade Bill" to stop all growth push people into homelessness, on to welfare rolls, cause the price of gas to go back to $5 a gal. and double your electric bills, stop job growth, cause the price of food rise out of reach of many, and increase imports of solar panels from China because the can produce them without paying sky high taxes for nothing. The Amateur in Chief Obama promised he would do this now he's taken the first step toward destroying America as he also said he would do.
Up to now he's lied about everything and picked the dstruction of America to tell the truth about.
Obama said and I paraphrase: "My plan for Cap and Trade plan will cause electric bills to skyrocket".

"Mar 15, 2008 ... My friends, we live in the greatest nation in the history of the world. I hope you'll join with me as we try to change it".
Barack Hussein Obama Extreme leftist & Anti American

When are the Granola Liberals going to get it. If this ignorant plan did all they claim to reduce CO2 the effect is less than 1 degree in like 30 years or something and even that is BS because global warming is a HOAX. 21 states set record low temperatures in the last 12 months and the ARMY reasuch Office said 86% of today's increases are the result of a normal Sun cycle and not man caused.
This whole global warming, Cap and Trade Bill BS should be in the conspiracy area. Wake up America before Obama drives us into 3rd world status so he can feel at home.