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Thread: US appoints envoy to Muslim world

  1. #21
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    Re: US appoints envoy to Muslim world

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    Wait, what?

    Please explain your reasoning.

    Seperation of church and state. It's unconstitutional for the United States government to officially recognize one religion over all others.

    The appointment of an enoy to the Muslim World includes American Muslims, as well as Arab Muslims; otherwise, it would discriminatory. It's unconstitutional for one religion in this country to have a government department for that religion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: US appoints envoy to Muslim world

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Uhh are you suggesting that most Muslims support the Taliban and al-Qaeda?
    Hardly. It also hardly requires a scholar of Islam to know that certain groups within the "Muslim world" place women in what we would consider second-class status.

    Remember that in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, women are not allowed to drive.

    Remember that Northern Sudan enforces a strict interpretation of Shari'ah, and as recently as 2007 sentenced women to death by stoning for adultery.

    Remember that the bottom of the 2009 Social Institutions and Gender Index is predominantly Muslim.

    Remember that the Taliban, during the time of their control of Afghanistan, denied women the right to even leave the house without a male to escort them, denied them education, and even access to healthcare.

    Outreach is about changing perceptions--changing the perceptions especially of one's putative enemies. Where is the need greater for shifting perceptions--among fairly moderate Egyptians or among fundamentalist Afghans and Pashtuns?

    If the outreach message is going to be rejected by those putative enemies because of the gender of the messenger, how much can realistically be accomplished?

    An envoy to the Ummah who will not be allowed to speak to the entirety of the Ummah is hindered in what she can accomplish.

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    Re: US appoints envoy to Muslim world

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Hardly. It also hardly requires a scholar of Islam to know that certain groups within the "Muslim world" place women in what we would consider second-class status.

    Remember that in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, women are not allowed to drive.

    Remember that Northern Sudan enforces a strict interpretation of Shari'ah, and as recently as 2007 sentenced women to death by stoning for adultery.

    Remember that the bottom of the 2009 Social Institutions and Gender Index is predominantly Muslim.

    Remember that the Taliban, during the time of their control of Afghanistan, denied women the right to even leave the house without a male to escort them, denied them education, and even access to healthcare.

    Outreach is about changing perceptions--changing the perceptions especially of one's putative enemies. Where is the need greater for shifting perceptions--among fairly moderate Egyptians or among fundamentalist Afghans and Pashtuns?

    If the outreach message is going to be rejected by those putative enemies because of the gender of the messenger, how much can realistically be accomplished?

    An envoy to the Ummah who will not be allowed to speak to the entirety of the Ummah is hindered in what she can accomplish.
    Was not Condi Rice able to deal with Saudi Arabia and the Sudan?

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    Re: US appoints envoy to Muslim world

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Seperation of church and state. It's unconstitutional for the United States government to officially recognize one religion over all others.

    The appointment of an enoy to the Muslim World includes American Muslims, as well as Arab Muslims; otherwise, it would discriminatory. It's unconstitutional for one religion in this country to have a government department for that religion.
    Hmm...

    I could agree with that.

    But are we aware of all the religions out there?

    For all we know, there could be some random hermit in the rain forrest who started his own religion which only he believes in...do we have to search them all out and send envoys to every one?
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

  5. #25
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    Re: US appoints envoy to Muslim world

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Hardly. It also hardly requires a scholar of Islam to know that certain groups within the "Muslim world" place women in what we would consider second-class status.

    Remember that in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, women are not allowed to drive.

    Remember that Northern Sudan enforces a strict interpretation of Shari'ah, and as recently as 2007 sentenced women to death by stoning for adultery.

    Remember that the bottom of the 2009 Social Institutions and Gender Index is predominantly Muslim.

    Remember that the Taliban, during the time of their control of Afghanistan, denied women the right to even leave the house without a male to escort them, denied them education, and even access to healthcare.

    Outreach is about changing perceptions--changing the perceptions especially of one's putative enemies. Where is the need greater for shifting perceptions--among fairly moderate Egyptians or among fundamentalist Afghans and Pashtuns?

    If the outreach message is going to be rejected by those putative enemies because of the gender of the messenger, how much can realistically be accomplished?

    An envoy to the Ummah who will not be allowed to speak to the entirety of the Ummah is hindered in what she can accomplish.
    But did you consider that her gender might HELP change perceptions? I doubt Martin Luther King would have been as influential as he was if he were white. But he became the most prominent face of Black America to many white people...and many of them found him (and by extension, black people) to be much less scary than they imagined.

    Sometimes it takes strong figures who belong to precisely the groups who are most oppressed. Many Muslim nations have shown this is possible. For example, Pakistan has become decidedly more liberal toward women's rights since Benazir Bhutto was prime minister in the early 90s. Obviously it has a long way to go, but the trend is undeniably in favor of greater gender equality.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 06-26-09 at 10:01 PM.
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    Re: US appoints envoy to Muslim world

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    But did you consider that her gender might HELP change perceptions? I doubt Martin Luther King would have been as influential as he was if he were white. But he became the most prominent face of Black America to many white people...and many of them found him (and by extension, black people) to be much less scary than they imagined.

    Sometimes it takes strong figures who belong to precisely the groups who are most oppressed. Many Muslim nations have shown this is possible. For example, Pakistan has become decidedly more liberal toward women's rights since Benazir Bhutto was prime minister in the early 90s.
    More than that, I think changing other countries perceptions of us should not involve us changing what we are. We are a country that puts women in a position of authority. Muslim countries have dealt with women in the past, they will have to in the future.

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    Re: US appoints envoy to Muslim world

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    But are we aware of all the religions out there?

    For all we know, there could be some random hermit in the rain forrest who started his own religion which only he believes in...do we have to search them all out and send envoys to every one?
    All the more reason not to have a religious envoy, at all. Hence the reason for the seperation of church and state.

    I mean, this is redicualous. Should we have had an envoy to the communists? Or, the Nazis? Hell no, we shouldn't have, just like we shouldn't for Islam. This is PC insanity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: US appoints envoy to Muslim world

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Are those the types we really want to engage in talks?
    If we're going to "talk" to the Ummah and exclude those types, we're inviting those types to fly some more planes into some more buildings.

    Moreover, those types are found everywhere, not just in nations dominated by a particular strain of Islam.

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    Re: US appoints envoy to Muslim world

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Hardly. It also hardly requires a scholar of Islam to know that certain groups within the "Muslim world" place women in what we would consider second-class status.

    Remember that in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, women are not allowed to drive.

    Remember that Northern Sudan enforces a strict interpretation of Shari'ah, and as recently as 2007 sentenced women to death by stoning for adultery.

    Remember that the bottom of the 2009 Social Institutions and Gender Index is predominantly Muslim.

    Remember that the Taliban, during the time of their control of Afghanistan, denied women the right to even leave the house without a male to escort them, denied them education, and even access to healthcare.

    Outreach is about changing perceptions--changing the perceptions especially of one's putative enemies. Where is the need greater for shifting perceptions--among fairly moderate Egyptians or among fundamentalist Afghans and Pashtuns?

    If the outreach message is going to be rejected by those putative enemies because of the gender of the messenger, how much can realistically be accomplished?

    An envoy to the Ummah who will not be allowed to speak to the entirety of the Ummah is hindered in what she can accomplish.
    Remember that Indonesia, which has the largest Muslim population in the world, elected a woman President.

    Remember that Pakistan, the second largest Muslim population in the world, elected a woman as Prime Minister.

    Remeber that Bangladesh has elected two women Prime Ministers.

    Remember that Turkey also elected a woman Prime Minister.
    Last edited by Gibberish; 06-26-09 at 10:05 PM.
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    Re: US appoints envoy to Muslim world

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    How is what he said about the issue saying what you say it is saying?
    It requires a liberal dose of imagination....
    Thank you

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