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Obama discusses deathbed measures

Serious question: Link? I hadn't heard this.

H.R. 676

IN GENERAL.—It is unlawful for a private health insurer to sell health insurance coverage that duplicates the benefits provided under this Act.

Page 8, Lines 4-7.

http://www.pnhp.org/nhibill/nhi_bill_final.pdf

That law is the same in all nations with UHC, including Canada. The point is to make it so that the private sector is supplementary to the UHC system instead of it taking the full burden.

Exactly. They want to marginalize the private health care industry and assume the lion's share of the market AKA a monopoly - those always work well.

In the U.S. this would mean a downsizing of the private sector, but insurance companies have already proven they cannot be trusted so I say this is their loss.

Of course, nothing wrong with putting thousands of people out of business because a few leftists find it politically advantageous to whine about how evil they are.

People wouldn't be advocating for UHC if there weren't foul play happening.

Be more specific. What's this "foul play" you speak of?

The law makes private insurance more useful and less redundant. People will still rely on private insurance for some of the things UHC doesn't cover. It will make insurance plans cheaper and less bureaucratic.

Well, the stated purpose of H.R. 676 is:

To provide for comprehensive health insurance coverage for all United States residents, and for other purposes [1].

Which makes me wonder, if they're providing comprehensive health insurance coverage, what's left for the private sector?

[1] - http://www.pnhp.org/nhibill/nhi_bill_final.pdf
 
Why?

There are plenty of people who want UHC because they are tired of jumping through the hoops of insurance companies, and being denied coverage arbitrarily.

Completely untrue.

1) How often do insurance companies "arbitrarily" deny claims?
This figure doesn't seem to be popular, even amongst groups or lawyers who help you appeal insurance denial claims. For example, "healthclaimappeals.org" only quotes a percentage for Medicare (10%, non-sourced) but declines to give one for private insurers.[1] Office of Health and Human Services sampled Medicaid in 8 states in 2000, finding "On average, about 15 percent of claims submitted for payment contain fatal
errors."[2] Maryland passed "clean claims" legislation in an effort to reduce the various clerical errors that result in denied claims. They now track claim denial rates to guage the success of the legislation. Using a Base Group of both private insurers and HMOs they find that in 2007 15.7% of all claims were denied.[3] Assuming Maryland is average, then both public and private insurance have effectively the same denial rate.

Answer: Both public and private insurers deny claims roughly 15% of the time.

2) What are the "arbitrary" reasons to deny claims?

"healthclaimappeals.org" suggests three:

healthclaimappeals.org said:
" * It is a duplicate or inauthentic claim. This happens more than you might think. Sometimes individuals or their health insurance provider will accidentally submit the same claim more than one once for payment. Insurance plans are also on the lookout for health insurance fraud, which is a major problem confronting the system.
* The policy that was purchased by you or your employer or established by the public program doesn’t cover the service or product in the claim. As an example, some plans don’t cover dental services or elective procedures.
* The claim is for a service or product that the medical community considers to be experimental because it has not been proven to be safe and effective. Most plans purchased by employers and individuals do not cover experimental treatment."

[1]

Office of Health and Human Servies suggests:

OHHS said:
"The most common fatal errors include missing or erroneous:
* provider and patient identification numbers,
* birth dates,
* diagnostic information, and
* prior authorization information."

[2]

Maryland Insurance Administration reports the most common reasons are:

MIA said:
"* Duplicate claim submission (31.7 percent)
* A pre-treatment authorization or referral for services was not obtained or unauthorized services performed were not covered by plan (19.8 percent)
* The patient was not covered or eligible for benefits at the time services occurred (9 percent)
* The patient had met the maximum benefit at the time services occurred (9 percent)"

[3]

Answer: The most common reasons are either insufficient information (for Medicare), or the claim is a duplicate (for private insurers). Procedure not covered or procedure considered unsafe or ineffective are secondary.

3) Of the reasons given for denying claims, what impact do doctors employed by insurance companies have?

If we assume that Maryland's "clean claims" represent those claims that are free of clerical errors, and that the only remaining reason for denial was the influence of an "in house" doctor (this is a generous assumption); then the percentage of clean claims denied can work as a proxy for "claim denied due to insurance doctor influence". For 2007 5.3% of "clean claims" were denied. For 2004 - 2006 the average was 1.5%.[3] Possible reasons for the increase in 2007 are provided in the report, "The most significant change in 2007 from the previous three years is the nearly four-fold increase in the number of claims denied because a pre-treatment authorization or referral for services was not obtained or unauthorized services performed." [3]

Answer: Insurance company doctors are responsible for between 1.5% and 5.3% of claims being denied (probably closer to former given both the lax assumptions and the anomaly of 2007 data).

Conclusion: Roughly 15% of claims are denied, and almost a third of those are denied because they are duplicates. Medical doctors employed by insurance companies have very little impact on the rate of claim denials, accounting for 5% or less of denials. Further, this assumes that all "in house" doctors act contrary to overall medical "best practices"; which has yet to be demonstrated. Banning doctors from being employed by insurance agencies will have little impact on reducing claim denials.

J

[1] Frequently Asked Questions - HealthClaimAppeals.org
[2] http://www.oig.hhs.gov/oei/reports/oei-05-99-00071.pdf
[3] http://www.mdinsurance.state.md.us/sa/documents/Cleanclaimsreport05-07-final01-09.pdf
 
Although I agree somewhat, how would you feel as a doctor in turning somebody off?

1. What do you agree with?

2. What do you mean by "a doctor turning somebody off"?

3. To whom are you posing this question?
 
What bothers me is that the government gets the final decision on what treatment is acceptable. Of course, as it stands today, the insurance company is frequently the final decider. Whatever happened to the belief that the doctor is the most qualified to make these decisions?
They are, but if they err they get sued.
 
Ethereal said:
Under Obama's plan it is unlawful for the private sector to provide equivalent coverage as the government. Doesn't that validate some people's concerns regarding their healthcare options, or lack thereof?
Ethereal said:
H.R. 676

IN GENERAL.—It is unlawful for a private health insurer to sell health insurance coverage that duplicates the benefits provided under this Act.

Page 8, Lines 4-7.

http://www.pnhp.org/nhibill/nhi_bill_final.pdf
You're confusing Obama's plan with H.R. 676 which is a full UHC, single payer proposal (it doesn't have a snowballs chance in hell of going anywhere, IMO).

Obama's plan gives everyone an alternative to private insurance, in fact he has said repeatedly, that if you like what you have now, by all means keep it.

http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/HealthPlanFull.pdf


Orius said:
There are plenty of people who want UHC because they are tired of jumping through the hoops of insurance companies, and being denied coverage arbitrarily.
Ethereal said:
Completely untrue.
Did you look at the at the 'proof' that you quoted from Solidus?

These aren't studies on denial or cancellation of coverage by insurance companies.

All three sources are talking about the costly, inefficient, confusion of filing of paperwork and the appeals process after the fact. The first two 'suggest' reasons why the claim was originally denied, the Maryland one spoke of clerical errors.

I don't think that's what Orius and others are concerned about.
 
Obama discusses deathbed measures - Los Angeles Times

Huge kudos to Obama for having the balls to say what needs to be said on this. Here's hoping he takes it one step further and reminds people that egardless of the health care system we have, you're not entitled to all the health care that you want. Elder care is one of the biggest black holes in our current system, and needs to be fixed if any new system has any hope of succeeding.

You're kidding me right? So who will be the decider of last resort when it comes to old people getting care that may not save them; the Government?

I am stunned that anyone can say "kudos" to someone in Government deciding that your mom or dad just aren't worth the effort and just let them die.

This is definitely what you will get when you become a "ward" of the Democrat state though; less choice and cold hearted statements that in order for the Government to save money and the healthcare system, we will allow those afflicted with critical conditions and the old infirm, just go somewhere and die and not drain the system of money.

I guess we should have just told all those with aids to just go away and die; after all, why waste all that money on them if they are going to die anyway.
 
Not in this thread. All you did is troll, as you usually do, so I pointed it out. But please, tell us what your thoughts are on this, other than your typical, nonsensical "I wanna bash Obama and anyone who supports him" posts. Let's see if you have a real position on this issue.

Wrongo as usual for you; Triad responded with an OPINION about Obamacare, you trolled him by making it a personal attack.

But then, based on your method of infracting people you just don't like, why should ANYONE be surprised to see a moderator on this forum not recognize his very own trolling.

This forum's inability to police it's own for trolling and baiting is stunning.
 
You of course know that there is a difference between not doing lifesaving procedures, and not doing unnecessary procedures? I know you would never exaggerate nor use ridiculous hyperbole.

You of course know that there is a difference between the Doctor or loved one making the decision of what is unnecessary and having some politician doing it? I know you would never use ridiculous hyperbole to make your points.
 
I am really getting tired of the rightwing "slippery slope" arguments on every issue. You are dying of cancer with six months to live. Should you get hip replacement surgery, which takes every bit of six months to recover from? Somehow Councilman would like us to believe that if you don't have that surgery it constitutes euthenasia, and he quickly draws a line to Hitler. This type of response is juvenile, unhelpful, and irresponsible.

What is juvenile, unhelpful and irresponsible is completely missing the point being made and going on another of your tiresome Liberal rants;

It's not about getting a hip replacement surgery when you have cancer, it is about who makes the decision about what is unnecessary. You of course think that politicians should make those decisions for you, but others who are quite a bit more enlightened are suggesting this would be a bad idea.

I am amused that Liberals think that MORE Government is a GOOD idea; that is, until Republicans are the ones in charge of the Government.
 
Well why should we spend hundreds of thousand of dollars to get a 97 year old a heart transplant for them to die of natural causes in two years?! What benefit does a 97 year old give society? They live off social security and use our tax money for their health care with medicare and all that nonsense.

This needs to be the poster child statement for what the Democrat Party stands for these days; thank you for pointing it out so clearly.
 
Sometimes its just not worth saving a life.

And thats the only decision the government would make. The ability to deny care to people who shouldn't get it.



Theyre deciding ONE thing. Wether it is worth saving a life.
[/QUOTE]

Bravo......I guess you will be okay letting the politicians decide whether or not your mom or dad are worth saving rather than trusting you with that decision. :roll:
 
Why?

There are plenty of people who want UHC because they are tired of jumping through the hoops of insurance companies, and being denied coverage arbitrarily. I have never seen such corruption before as I have in the U.S. private insurance sector.

Okay, let me understand this, you think that Insurance Companies will make you jump through more hoops than a Government run plan?

I cannot willfully suspend my disbelief sufficiently to even think, let alone suggest such nonsense.

But let's put this whole debate to rest right now; we should all be asking the Democrats including Obama this question; will they all be under the same plan as the one they want to force us to have? If the answer is no, then the American people clearly should not support anything politicians want to force on them.

The notion that Government employees will be more honest, more caring and better equipped to decide who gets medical care and when, and that they will somehow be better fiscal managers requires a stunning level of willful denial don't you think?
 
Why?

There are plenty of people who want UHC because they are tired of jumping through the hoops of insurance companies, and being denied coverage arbitrarily. I have never seen such corruption before as I have in the U.S. private insurance sector.

You're claiming that the fact that people want UHC is proof of foul play. There's nothing to support that.

"Single Payer"


I would say this is by definition a "yes"....


Do I have something wrong?

Obama proposed a single payer system? Link?

You're kidding me right? So who will be the decider of last resort when it comes to old people getting care that may not save them; the Government?

www.medicare.googleit.com

I am stunned that anyone can say "kudos" to someone in Government deciding that your mom or dad just aren't worth the effort and just let them die.

How would Obama's proposal take away rights that you would otherwise have? I don't think you understand what is going on.

This is definitely what you will get when you become a "ward" of the Democrat state though; less choice and cold hearted statements that in order for the Government to save money and the healthcare system, we will allow those afflicted with critical conditions and the old infirm, just go somewhere and die and not drain the system of money.

I guess we should have just told all those with aids to just go away and die; after all, why waste all that money on them if they are going to die anyway.

There's a difference between no care and palliative care.
 
There's a difference between no care and palliative care.

There's a HUGE difference between having CHOICE and NO CHOICE.

There's a HUGE difference between making decisions for YOURSELF and allowing faceless Government Bureaucrats make them.

There's a difference between having the best level of care without LONG waiting lines and shortages and giving up your freedoms for a Government MISmanaged program where the decisions of your care are no longer yours and you are taxed at ever greater levels to pay for LESS care than we currently have.

The only thing that requires more willful denial than the notion that National healthcare is a GOOD thing is the equally asinine notion that Government can do the job better than the FREE market and that we citizens will actually pay LESS for a more MEDIOCRE system than we currently have.

This is not about NOT having care; this is about NOT having any choice or anywhere else to turn.
 
There's a HUGE difference between having CHOICE and NO CHOICE.

There's a HUGE difference between making decisions for YOURSELF and allowing faceless Government Bureaucrats make them.

There's a difference between having the best level of care without LONG waiting lines and shortages and giving up your freedoms for a Government MISmanaged program where the decisions of your care are no longer yours and you are taxed at ever greater levels to pay for LESS care than we currently have.

The only thing that requires more willful denial than the notion that National healthcare is a GOOD thing is the equally asinine notion that Government can do the job better than the FREE market and that we citizens will actually pay LESS for a more MEDIOCRE system than we currently have.

This is not about NOT having care; this is about NOT having any choice or anywhere else to turn.

Read the words that I posted, then try again.

How would you have no choice in Obama's system? Is he proposing to ban all private doctors?

I'm not advocating for national health care. I think it's a ****ty idea. However, your arguments against it are just plain terrible.
 
You should try actual debate. Oh wait, that is far too complex and taxing for you.

Debate what?

People lacking a coherent moral philosophy waving machine guns in people's faces and telling them what's good for them?

You can't debate because you don't have a consistent moral and philosophical foundation for your ideas. You're told what's nice, you react emotionally, you're told half-assed arguments, you react emotionally, and you decide that because you feel goo about it, it's okay to impose your feelings on others at the point of a gun.

Bully for you.

Don't babble about debate when you can't even argue.
 
I'm not advocating for national health care. I think it's a ****ty idea. However, your arguments against it are just plain terrible.

1) It's not allowed by the Constitution.

That's an excellent argument.

2) The government can't afford to steal 14% of the nation's economy right now.

That's an excellent argument.

3) Mandatory rationing by bureaucratic estimation. That sound wonderful to you?

That's an excellent argument.

4) It's not necessary.

That's an excellent argument.

5) People with private healthcare will lose it. Don't lie about this, that's what comes next.

That's an excellent argument.

In favor?

1) Buys Democrat votes
2) Puts 14% more of the economy under direct government control, in addition to the financial sector in which the government has done such a wonderful job running.
3) Makes even more people dependent on government.
4) Destroys the free market.
5) Won't do what's promised, since it's not intended to.
 
Obama's plan gives everyone an alternative to private insurance, in fact he has said repeatedly,

That's certainly reassuring.

Certainly the coal miners he promised to protect will feel relieved about that since his Cap and Trade bill is going though that will destroy coal mining in America.


I bet all the people he repeatedly promised to not tax will feel relieved that he's repeatedly promising to let them (how gracious the fascists are in victory, they say) keep their private health care, as he raises taxes on everyone who has a job.
 
Perhaps not, but I think its his ideal system, at least he says it is.

Obama Touts Single-Payer System for Health Care - Washington Wire - WSJ

From that source:

"So my attitude is let’s build up the system we got, let’s make it more efficient, we may be over time—as we make the system more efficient and everybody’s covered—decide that there are other ways for us to provide care more effectively.”

Important to tell the whole story Rev, not just the part handy for you hyper-partisan right wing types.
 
Oh please, He would prefer a single payer system.


Yes or no.

Misleading. In a perfect world, single payer would be preferable. In the real world, it would not be. You have so much trouble with context.
 
Misleading. In a perfect world, single payer would be preferable. In the real world, it would not be. You have so much trouble with context.

In a perfect world, the person getting his leg fixed pays the doctor. It's not my leg, I shouldn't have to pay a dime.

In the socialist world, where nothing works, single payer is preferred, so long as that single payer is the government.

No self-respecting responsible adult thinks the socialist vision of health care is healthy.
 
1) It's not allowed by the Constitution.

That's an excellent argument

Except insomuch as that it's based on your hilarious misunderstanding of the law.

2) The government can't afford to steal 14% of the nation's economy right now.

That's an excellent argument.

Agree. Stick with this one.

3) Mandatory rationing by bureaucratic estimation. That sound wonderful to you?

That's an excellent argument.

I don't think you understand what the word "rationing" means.

4) It's not necessary.

That's an excellent argument.

Also a good argument.

5) People with private healthcare will lose it. Don't lie about this, that's what comes next.

That's an excellent argument.

Not implausible. If you dig up some sources that support you on this and learn to convey it in a balanced manner, you might actually end up convincing people of your view.

Godspeed.
 
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