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Unimaginable Horror In Tehran Today (Baharestan Square Massacre)

Actually, no one gives a crap about Darfur because Somalia isn't the heart of the middle east, the problems are different and intractible, the population is too primitive, and the US remembers Somalia and Clinton without any fondness.

I have a feeling Somalia will be more in the spotlight with the infiltration of Al Qaeda and Taliban-like Sharia and soldiers.

Ethiopia will be attacked eventually ... isn't that the ally of US?
 
If the beaten protestors were members of the UAW, Obama would take action immeditely (or as soon as he gets back from his Luau).
 
Iraq was a utter disgrace.

It was?

The United States expelled a repressive murderous dictator and enabled the people of that country to write a democratic constitution and implement other democratic reforms that have resulted in a young democracy of free people where once a totalitarian regime of slaves held sway.

And you're feeling disgraced about that?

No wonder Neville Chamberlain could get away with selling Czechoslovakia to Hitler.
 
That's it. Upon confirmation of these reports, we should be willing to send military assistance into Iran. If that's the way it's going to be, arm the protestors with American weapons and join the fight. I don't really see much else we can do if all this is true.
Go to war with Iraq over a government hurting its own people? Why not militarily invade the entire earth?
 
Every day, ten times as many are slaughtered in places like Rwanda or Darfur.

just sayin'
 
It was?

The United States expelled a repressive murderous dictator and enabled the people of that country to write a democratic constitution and implement other democratic reforms that have resulted in a young democracy of free people where once a totalitarian regime of slaves held sway.

And you're feeling disgraced about that?

No wonder Neville Chamberlain could get away with selling Czechoslovakia to Hitler.

US is sure as hell selective in the countries it decides to save.

Zimbabwe? Where is US in that?
Where is US in Darfur?

Are they not repressive murderous dictators??
 
Every day, ten times as many are slaughtered in places like Rwanda or Darfur.

just sayin'

People like winners, and the People of Iran exemplify that by not just taking what the "Great" Ayottolas giving them. They are standing up for themselves to throw of the yoke of oppression, something all Americans should respect.
 
They are standing up for themselves to throw of the yoke of oppression, something all Americans should respect.

They have all my respect.

But i still will not support any form of UK interference with Iran.
Do we get their oil if we invade?
 
Although it is easy to sympathize with the Iranians, it is not in the U.S. interest to get involved in the conflict.
Iran has oil, they sit on one side of the Straits of Hormuz, they share a border with Afghanistan, and they have nuclear technology. If they do not already have the capacity to manufacture nuclear weapons they will in the very near future.

Iran is not a country the world can afford to ignore indefinitely. U.S interest, international interest, is for stable and largely peaceful government in Iran. Democracy is preferred but not mandatory.

A destabilized Iran is a danger to everyone. Other nations can look away only so long before this becomes a matter of international concern.

That backing the protesters means standing up for our own political ideals and heritage is a pleasant bonus. Sometimes you get lucky that way.

Practically speaking, the youth have little chance if they turn to violence, even with our support. The moment we offer aid, Khamenei will declare proof of American interference and brand the protesters as collaborators of western imperialists, then call in the revolutionary guard. The revolutionary guard is political army designed to deal with this sort of situation and are loyal to the current regime. Counterinsurgency is a very different game when you are content to use wide-scale slaughter and intimidation to win. In the end, it is likely that the current regime will stay in power and have a serious bone to pick with us. Furthermore, it would be yet more ammunition for the radicals who claim we are evil imperialists out to destroy the Muslim world.
Read the news. Khamenei is already hurling those accusations, is already calling out the Revolutionary Guard and the Basij militias. He's already shot that bolt.

Yes, if we arm the insurgents they might lose, and we might be faced with a hostile Iran. If we do nothing the insurgents might lose and we might be faced with a slightly less hostile Iran.

Or we arm the insurgents, they win, and we have a friendly Iran.

It is a risk, but if the violence is increasing, the risk is small and growing smaller, while the reward large and getting larger.

The time to gamble may very well be now.

Ultimately, it is not the role of the U.S. to use weapons to promote democracy in the world. We have ignored hundreds of other instances of the people being attacked by there governments, and there is no reason to get involved this time either.
True enough. We have no interest in "promoting democracy." We do have interest in promoting stable government in strategically situated nations with nuclear ambitions
 
They have all my respect.

But i still will not support any form of UK interference with Iran.
Do we get their oil if we invade?


Invasion would be foolish, getting involved through goverments is not going to help the Iranian people. They do require our mental and emotional support. Its time for the people to fight for their own interest without any cloud of percieved outside interference.
 
US is sure as hell selective in the countries it decides to save.

So?

Zimbabwe? Where is US in that?

Far away.

Where's jolly old england amid the throes of it's former colony?

Where is US in Darfur?

Not our problem.

Are they not repressive murderous dictators??

Welcome to the proper use of the word "choice".

Since the United States is NOT the World's Cop, we get to choose where we go.

It's part of the fun of living in a free country.
 
Invasion would be foolish, getting involved through goverments is not going to help the Iranian people. They do require our mental and emotional support.

Economics is the only weapon we have and Europe is the one with the power not US.
The majority of Iran's economy is dependent on Europe, we should just cut them off .... but it may bring up oil prices. Oh well, isn't that heartbreaking? Lets cut off the oil and allow some people dump the cars for healthy walking.
 

:roll:

Then US or anyone in the West cannot claim to be helping another country by overthrowing a 'dictatorous' regime because sweetheart, there are more than one in this world.
Do we plan to go get every single one? What made Iraq more worthy of democracy than any other country in this world under a dictator?
 
People like winners, and the People of Iran exemplify that by not just taking what the "Great" Ayottolas giving them. They are standing up for themselves to throw of the yoke of oppression, something all Americans should respect.

I'm not sure how I feel about setting foreign policy based on what would make the best Lifetime made-for-TV movie.
 
Really? Because I seem to remember the Ayatollah losing his entire family when Reagan ordered his assassination and we dropped bombs on his house.

A response is definitely needed. Funneling weapons is the only way at this point. Not even Reagan the Great would risk open war in Iran, while trying to hold Iraq together. That destabization would be catastrophic. Of course, once the oil supply is threatened and oil prices sky rocket during this global recession, everyone will be stepping in.
 
:roll:

Then US or anyone in the West cannot claim to be helping another country by overthrowing a 'dictatorous' regime because sweetheart, there are more than one in this world.

Oh.

I see.

So when we DO overthrow a tyrant, we're the evil imperialist tyrants then.

Given the opinion the whole world that's against us, why shouldn't we nuke all of you and be done with it, then, since we're The Great Satan?
 
Given the opinion the whole world that's against us, why shouldn't we nuke all of you and be done with it, then, since we're The Great Satan?

Because it would harm US's interest.

People like to think their country is moral or good, whatever that means. It is not. The state would turn a gun on any of us if it was in their interest to.
 
I'm pretty sure it's not true, because if the Basiji were using axes, it would be a huge story

And who would be reporting that huge story? For the past week or so the only news coming out of Iran is comming from sources such as twitter. The news media has been thrown out of the country and forbidden from reporting.
The state run media is calling the protesters terrorist. Get real.
 
Because it would harm US's interest.

Not really. After a hundred years or so the land would be both arable and empty.

People like to think their country is moral or good, whatever that means. It is not. The state would turn a gun on any of us if it was in their interest to.

Well, your country is neither, I'll agree whole heartedly.

My country has for the most part minded it's own business where possible, like in Darfur and Zimbabwe, and focused it attentions on areas that are important.

Jesus couldn't cure all the poverty and disease in the world, why were you people expecting that of Bush, whom you all claim is a fool?

People that expend their every and last dying breath trying to do good are not only fools, they never accomplish anything.

A good man knows the size of grasp and does not grab for the watermelon when he can only handle an apple. A good nation is made of good men.

A bad nation is full of whiners pointing out when a good nation isn't doing their bidding.
 
Jesus couldn't cure all the poverty and disease in the world, why were you people expecting that of Bush, whom you all claim is a fool?

I never said UK was moral or good.

Bush was a retard and a dip****. Fool is too nice a word.
 
Read the news. Khamenei is already hurling those accusations, is already calling out the Revolutionary Guard and the Basij militias. He's already shot that bolt.

No he hasn't. The small scale killings and beatings are sadly not even close. Lets look to nearby Syria in 1982.
[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hama_massacre]Hama massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
That is what happens when the full power of a semi-modern military is allowed to kill without restrictions.

Or we arm the insurgents, they win, and we have a friendly Iran.

Mousavi is no friend of America. Even supporting him in a revolution won't change that. There are countless examples of our former "friends" turning against us despite our support in times of war.

It is a risk, but if the violence is increasing, the risk is small and growing smaller, while the reward large and getting larger.

The time to gamble may very well be now.

Violence favors the current regime. They have a politically loyal military and likely will turn to massacre to maintain their power. If it gets bloody, the students are unlikely to prevail. These people aren't battle hardened religious fanatics, they are students and mothers.

We need to shift from our cold war policy. Leaving a trail of supported coups and revolutions has really ended up biting us in the ass in the long run. Hell, we wouldn't even be in this situation if we hadn't intervened in Iran in the first place.

True enough. We have no interest in "promoting democracy." We do have interest in promoting stable government in strategically situated nations with nuclear ambitions

Glad to see we agree on that.
 
I never said UK was moral or good.

Bush was a retard and a dip****. Fool is too nice a word.

No.

Bush is a standard issue well left of center liberal American politician, and incompetence is what is expected of peole foolish enough to value those traditions.

Since you say Bush is a retard and a dipstick, I'm sure you don't have any words to describe how awful The Messiah is.
 
Because it would harm US's interest.

People like to think their country is moral or good, whatever that means. It is not. The state would turn a gun on any of us if it was in their interest to.

Not content with a world that is not a fairy tale. Considering that politics is a nasty business, and war is even nastier, perhaps the actions, all things considered are quite good. Not perfect, but good or decent.

Sometimes I have to remind myself that even though humans are quite imperfect, they are capable of good works, however gray they seem in comparison with our desires, hence my acceptance that comparatevely speaking, the United States is a good nation with an incredibly generous foreign policy.
 
:roll:

Then US or anyone in the West cannot claim to be helping another country by overthrowing a 'dictatorous' regime because sweetheart, there are more than one in this world.
Do we plan to go get every single one? What made Iraq more worthy of democracy than any other country in this world under a dictator?

Even if the United States were willing to try to overturn the whole world's bad sectors without even so much as a kickback, we even indirectly know the lessons Robert K Merton wrote about without even reading them: The Limits of Purposive Social Action. There are indeed limits to what we can do, even if it deals with temperament back home. If Iraq succeeds, it is incredibly possible it was more due to luck than skill, but nevertheless, it was a good venture in our moral compass-even if it was in our interest to do so. It is up to the wise ruler to decide what is a worthwhile investment, and a ruler who is always mindful about his end of the bargain is also performing a moral good.
 
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