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Thread: Unimaginable Horror In Tehran Today (Baharestan Square Massacre)

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    Re: Unimaginable Horror In Tehran Today (Baharestan Square Massacre)

    Quote Originally Posted by Smoke[MaxX] View Post
    Yes, we should be proud that we spent so much money in Iraq when our own economy is turning to shambles.

    If we REALLY want to do something, open the borders to Mexican immigrants. They have a crime-infested country where hard workers are willing to come over to our country and work for cheap, if we let them. Heck, many are so desperate for a job that they're willing to work for under minimum wage, get verbally abused by Americans, AND send home money to Mexico. We don't have to cross the Pacific Ocean just to be humanitarians. To say we're just trying to help a country is a lie and it's disgusting. Was it a fortunate consequence? Yes, but it's so hypocritical when there are easier things that can be done.
    I agree we should reform our immigration policy with regards to our relationship with Mexico.

    I disagree that our actions in Iraq and Afghanistan are hypocritical. Who's the bigger hypocrite, the countries that actually did fight to overthrow a dictator, or the ones that simply point fingers and say "but you didn't overthrow "that" one?"

    If these other factions of "the West" are so concerned about the rest of the world, why the inaction on their behalf?
    "Loyalty only matters when there's a hundred reasons not to be-" Gen. Mattis

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    Re: Unimaginable Horror In Tehran Today (Baharestan Square Massacre)

    Quote Originally Posted by Smoke[MaxX] View Post
    Look guys, there's a limit to what you can do. I'm part of my college's Volunteer Activism club and there are plenty of countries in Africa that need our help more than Iran. Why don't we just invade all of those countries and make little democracies of them? It's because it's not feasible. I wish we could help every one of them, but a nation has to wisely pick and choose its battles. If we didn't invade Iraq, we'd have that much more money to help rebuild our economy and help our people.

    I'm not saying that it all boils down to money, but if a police officer can't afford to pay the bills, how does that help the legal system?
    I definatly agree regarding the choosing your battles wisely. Iran could hit us pretty hard in Iraq and if Iraq and Afganistan go down the ****ter again then our involvement in these countrys will have been a tragic waste of life [though its argueable that they are already I think the situation is still salvagable] We already made the mistake of biting off more then we can chew by invading Iraq when we should have finished off in Afganistan. If we should be sending troops anywhere it should be Darfur were there is actually a potential for us to make a difference. The UN peacekeeping force in Darfur is the only thing keeping many civillians/aid workers alive but its massively under resourced

    I do find the selective outrage of certain posters annoying. What were they doing when the United States cold war allies were doing pretty much the same thing the Iranian government is doing now except with the help of U.S intelligence, arms and even troops.

    That said if some of our weapons accidently ended up in the hands off the Iranian opossition I wouldnt complain

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    Re: Unimaginable Horror In Tehran Today (Baharestan Square Massacre)

    I believe that this may be the perfect moment to become involved, if the reports have been confirmed. A period of diplomatic restraint, followed by increasing involvement - after the other side has shown it's true ugliness - would be most effective, in my view. It makes it plausible - from the perspective of the world community - that maybe, just maybe, we're in it for principle rather than self interest.

    Unfortunately, the world has trouble believing us right now, after the flimsy excuses we used to enter Iraq. Our hands may be tied, now, even for justified causes.

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    Re: Unimaginable Horror In Tehran Today (Baharestan Square Massacre)

    I agree with Darfur. My volunteer organization recently worked with Invisible Children. It was one of the bigger college rallies considering we're probably one of the smaller colleges in the nation.

    That being said, I don't ever want it to come across as either A) I value American lives more than other countrymen's lives or B) I don't care for other people (and only value money). However, the reality of things is that you can't afford to have all these battles. Part of me also feels like it's none of my business because I don't live in that country, but of course that almost makes it feel like it would also "not be my business" if somebody got raped in an ally right next to me.

    Also, WI Crippler- I think the bigger problem is that we invaded Afghanistan to get Osama (justified) and ended up invading Iraq to get Saddam (not as justified). From your perspective, we're not hypocrites. However, according to our original mission- we didn't exactly do what we planned.

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    Re: Unimaginable Horror In Tehran Today (Baharestan Square Massacre)

    Quote Originally Posted by Smoke[MaxX] View Post
    Also, WI Crippler- I think the bigger problem is that we invaded Afghanistan to get Osama (justified) and ended up invading Iraq to get Saddam (not as justified). From your perspective, we're not hypocrites. However, according to our original mission- we didn't exactly do what we planned.
    The mistakes we made with Iraq were 1. Not taking him out the first time. We had an international coalition, and there was every justification for removing him from power. We also had a greater number of troops in the area that would have been a help to stabilize the country. 2. When we invaded this time, we went for style over substance. This was Rumsfeld fault for relying too much on the idea of "Shock and Awe" rather than something more appropriate like the Powell Doctrine. We allowed the country to destabilize too easily, after the overthrow was complete. It allowed certain factions to take hold, until Petraus' strategy took over.

    Do I believe we made mistakes with Iraq? Sure. We made several as far as the "selling" of the war, and its execution. But I do not believe the war to be unjustified or hypocritical. You must remember, we went into Afghanistan and overthrew their government as well, we didn't just go looking for Osama.
    "Loyalty only matters when there's a hundred reasons not to be-" Gen. Mattis

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    Re: Unimaginable Horror In Tehran Today (Baharestan Square Massacre)

    Quote Originally Posted by WI Crippler View Post
    The mistakes we made with Iraq were 1. Not taking him out the first time. We had an international coalition, and there was every justification for removing him from power. We also had a greater number of troops in the area that would have been a help to stabilize the country. 2. When we invaded this time, we went for style over substance. This was Rumsfeld fault for relying too much on the idea of "Shock and Awe" rather than something more appropriate like the Powell Doctrine. We allowed the country to destabilize too easily, after the overthrow was complete. It allowed certain factions to take hold, until Petraus' strategy took over.

    Do I believe we made mistakes with Iraq? Sure. We made several as far as the "selling" of the war, and its execution. But I do not believe the war to be unjustified or hypocritical. You must remember, we went into Afghanistan and overthrew their government as well, we didn't just go looking for Osama.
    The reason President Bush the elder gave for not invading was fear of destabilizing the region, which was a pretty legitimate fear. Its easy to look back and second guess, but I kinda respect the guy for not taking extra chances.

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    Re: Unimaginable Horror In Tehran Today (Baharestan Square Massacre)

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    That's it. Upon confirmation of these reports, we should be willing to send military assistance into Iran. If that's the way it's going to be, arm the protestors with American weapons and join the fight. I don't really see much else we can do if all this is true.


    Is Obama still just "Apalled"? I am looking for his statement but can't seem to get past all that jackson bull****.
    Last edited by ReverendHellh0und; 06-26-09 at 10:39 AM.
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    Re: Unimaginable Horror In Tehran Today (Baharestan Square Massacre)

    Quote Originally Posted by WI Crippler View Post
    Do I believe we made mistakes with Iraq? Sure. We made several as far as the "selling" of the war, and its execution. But I do not believe the war to be unjustified or hypocritical. You must remember, we went into Afghanistan and overthrew their government as well, we didn't just go looking for Osama.
    I still personally believe it's either hypocritical or unjustified (not really sure right now) for us to go into Afghanistan to retaliate against an "attack against America" and then shift the focus to a war in a different country. I mean, we DID overthrow the Afghanistan government as well, but that really just falls into my "fortunate consequence" category. I don't think we were really trying to (at least as far as we were justified in doing). We were supposed to be paying Al-Qaeda back for 9/11 and we didn't really do that. The Afghanistan War was overshadowed for many years by the Iraq War and I don't believe that was right.

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    Re: Unimaginable Horror In Tehran Today (Baharestan Square Massacre)

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    Is Obama still just "Appaulled"? I am looking for his statement but can't seem to get past all that jackson bull****.
    He'll likely put out a statement about Michael Jackson, before he puts one out about the growing situation in Iran.
    "Loyalty only matters when there's a hundred reasons not to be-" Gen. Mattis

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    Re: Unimaginable Horror In Tehran Today (Baharestan Square Massacre)

    Quote Originally Posted by WI Crippler View Post
    So we took out one.

    Thats more than anybody else in the west can claim to have done. So while your busy shifting goalposts, and pointing to all the other troubled spots in the world, maybe you should realize that we did something, somewhere, as opposed to the rest of the free world, who stands by doing absolutely nothing. You should be proud of the work your British troops have done in Iraq and Afghanistan along side the US. Its a bit goddamned more impressive than any effort put forth by anybody else.
    What is there to be proud of?
    If we are mentioning humanitarian reasons for our actions in Iraq, why shouldn't i mention other countries which ARE more worthy of US and UK help? Why aren't we helping stop a genocide but we went nuts about invisible weapons?

    We did not go to Iraq because of a dictator. We didn't care when we was funding weapons and helping him murder his own people.
    Hell, US and UK refused to condemn the actions Iraq had took against Iran in the UN, chemical weapons because he was our "friend"
    We sure as hell didn't care he was a oppressive, murderous dictator then did we? We brushed aside human rights and democracy as if it was nothing then.
    Why was it so different in 2003?


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