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Thread: West 'seeks Iran disintegration'

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    Re: West 'seeks Iran disintegration'

    Stop right there. If you cannot even bother to refer to the president without resorting to insults, you don't want a discussion. I could care less what you are saying when you can't bother to take the time to be decent. You just want to push your hyper-partisan rhetoric, which is fine, but don't expect any real conversation.

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    Re: West 'seeks Iran disintegration'

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    I have said for several days now that Dear Leader should be speaking emphatically about the rights to free speech, free assembly, and free elections. Of a certainty Dear Leader's stand for free speech and free assembly should have preceded Khamenei's Friday address. There were no principles articulated in Dear Leader's statement that attended upon Khamenei's speech. Dear Leader's statement, said a week earlier, would have been vastly more influential, without lending any credence to charges of "meddling" (which charges came anyway even with Dear Leader's feckless responses to events).

    If Dear Leader had said such things in a timely fashion I would be commending him for his Presidential response. When I find agreement with his handling of things, I am not shy about saying so, as you know quite well.

    I disagree with you fundamentally, but I do appreciate the way you communicate your beliefs.

    I think it was wise not to jump the gun and make any harsh decisions before knowing the whole situation and the consequences involved. I think we've too long filled the role of world police, and it is nice to see that we are not getting to actively involved in this situation.

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    Re: West 'seeks Iran disintegration'

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Dear Leader has only done exactly what he should if you are arguing he should stand to one side and let the world pass by. Were Dear Leader a good leader he would not be pushed along by these events, but would have from the beginning spoken from a bedrock of American principle.
    So the President should take political action, not on the best interest of the country but based on the emotions of the American people?

    If you are for Obama taking a firmer stance in support of Mousavi are you willing to accept his decision when the repercussions and alienation occur when the protests stop, Ahmadinejad is accepted as the President, and Iran condemns the US for trying to influence their internal politics?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    When it takes a man a full week to remember that rights of assembly and free speech are American rights as well, are American virtues as well, and that the natural affinity of America is towards those who desire free speech and free assembly, that man is not doing what any President of the United States should be doing. That man is not leading.
    Sounds like hyperbole to me. What leads you to the conclusion Obama forgot the rights of assembly and free speech? Has Obama condemned these things in someway?
    Last edited by Gibberish; 06-22-09 at 08:44 PM.
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    Re: West 'seeks Iran disintegration'

    Quote Originally Posted by Midwest Lib View Post
    I disagree with you fundamentally, but I do appreciate the way you communicate your beliefs.

    I think it was wise not to jump the gun and make any harsh decisions before knowing the whole situation and the consequences involved. I think we've too long filled the role of world police, and it is nice to see that we are not getting to actively involved in this situation.
    Thanks for your kind words (and apologies for not remembering to say this on the first pass).

    Of a certainty this is not a time for saber-rattling or deploying forces or putting a carrier group just off the coast of Iran in the Persian Gulf.

    However, it is also not a question of being the world's "police." This is a question of having a foundation of principle from which to speak to whomever prevails in this contest.

    There very likely is a people's uprising taking place within the Islamic Republic, and the very existence of the Islamic Republic is a testament to the unstoppable force of a people sufficiently enraged at their government. If the people rise up against the Islamic Republic, that government will cease to exist literally overnight. It will fall as rapidly as Marcos in the Phillippines in 1986 or Ceaucesceau (sp?) in 1989.

    If the Islamic Republic falls, how shall we deal with the government that comes after? Do we extend an open hand, one democracy to another? Do we extend a threatening fist, treating them like any other junta in the third world? On what principle can we stand, if while the Iranian people fought and died for their freedom we feigned disinterest and said, in so many words, "Not our problem"?

    Similarly, how do we face down the thuggishness of Ahamenijad and the mendacity of Khamenei, should they prevail? If we say nothing now, what prevents them, in their triumph, from dismissing any statements we make afterward as empty and idle?

    As I have said for many days now, this is not a time to back any one Iranian candidate; this is not a time to say who did and did not win the election. This is and has been for several days a time to say loudly and often that elections matter, that rights matter, that freedoms matter. Dear Leader has said these things but once, and only upon compulsion by events. That is not leadership, and that is not building a bedrock of principle to deal with whatever government prevails in Iran.
    Last edited by celticlord; 06-22-09 at 08:57 PM.

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    Re: West 'seeks Iran disintegration'

    Quote Originally Posted by Triad View Post
    Nobody is that stupid.

    Stop Trolling.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

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    Re: West 'seeks Iran disintegration'

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibberish View Post
    So the President should take political action, not on the best interest of the country but based on the emotions of the American people?

    If you are for Obama taking a firmer stance in support of Mousavi are you willing to accept his decision when the repercussions and alienation occur when the protests stop, Ahmadinejad is accepted as the President, and Iran condemns the US for trying to influence their internal politics?
    Standing tall for the unalienable rights of men is not influencing. We need say nothing more than who we are as Americans, what our heritage is as a nation, and what principles we hold dear. Nothing in what need be said favors one side or the other, save that Khamenei's side blanches at the thought of free and unfettered elections.

    Standing tall for who we are is always in our best interests. It presents a principled face to the world, without being preachy. We need not say that all the world should follow our model, merely that we are witness to the virtues of government of the people, by the people, and for the people.

    As for the condemnations....those came anyway. Khamenei will use that club as long as he can to retain power, without regard for truth. As he will say such things regardless of what we do, even if we do nothing at all, why should that stand against our speaking out?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibberish View Post
    Sounds like hyperbole to me. What leads you to the conclusion Obama forgot the rights of assembly and free speech? Has Obama condemned these things in someway?
    It took him a full week to say what any American President should be eager to say. Perhaps he did not forget it; perhaps someone forgot to load it into his teleprompter. What is certain is that it took him a week too long to say what should be said daily.

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    Re: West 'seeks Iran disintegration'

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    As I have said for many days now, this is not a time to back any one Iranian candidate; this is not a time to say who did and did not win the election. This is and has been for several days a time to say loudly and often that elections matter, that rights matter, that freedoms matter. Dear Leader has said these things but once, and only upon compulsion by events. That is not leadership, and that is not building a bedrock of principle to deal with whatever government prevails in Iran.
    What exactly does the President repeating this add to the situation in Iran? How many times should he repeat it? Should there be a press conference once a week solely on the topic of freedom and elections?

    The US stance on freedom, democracy, and elections, is clear and I think is a waste of time of Obama to verbally repeat.

    I agree with pretty much the rest of your post. We just need to see how far the Iran people are will to take their uprising. They traded in the Shah monarch for a Theocratic monarch. Are they willing to rebel again for a true democracy?
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    Re: West 'seeks Iran disintegration'

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Stop right there. If you cannot even bother to refer to the president without resorting to insults, you don't want a discussion. I could care less what you are saying when you can't bother to take the time to be decent. You just want to push your hyper-partisan rhetoric, which is fine, but don't expect any real conversation.
    I insult the President because his ineffectual presence in the Oval Office insults this country. He is a disgrace, a callow contemptible creature, and I treat him with the contempt that is his just due.

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    Re: West 'seeks Iran disintegration'

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Standing tall for the unalienable rights of men is not influencing. We need say nothing more than who we are as Americans, what our heritage is as a nation, and what principles we hold dear. Nothing in what need be said favors one side or the other, save that Khamenei's side blanches at the thought of free and unfettered elections.

    Standing tall for who we are is always in our best interests. It presents a principled face to the world, without being preachy. We need not say that all the world should follow our model, merely that we are witness to the virtues of government of the people, by the people, and for the people.

    As for the condemnations....those came anyway. Khamenei will use that club as long as he can to retain power, without regard for truth. As he will say such things regardless of what we do, even if we do nothing at all, why should that stand against our speaking out?
    I guess I just don't see the purpose of Obama stating our countries Mission Statement repeatedly. It's not about America. It's about Iran and what the Iran people want form their government. It's great that America is this great place and believes in all these things. How does stating that help the Iran protesters?
    "Gold gets dug out of the ground in Africa, or someplace. Then we melt it down, dig another hole, bury it again and pay people to stand around guarding it. It has no utility. Anyone watching from Mars would be scratching their head."
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    Re: West 'seeks Iran disintegration'

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Moderator's Warning:
    West 'seeks Iran disintegration'Triad, knock of the personal attacks or there will be further consequences.
    Utter BS.

    They troll I respond I get told to be nice.

    WTF are you on?

    Redress trolled and so blatantly that they had to act stupid.
    Nobody is that Stupid.

    I reported the troll posts..now I reported the mods post.
    Last edited by Triad; 06-22-09 at 09:31 PM.

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