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Thread: Greece demands UK return Elgin marbles

  1. #71
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    Re: Greece demands UK return Elgin marbles

    The Marbles was paid for by Elgin with full permission of the Empire, the ruling body at the time - It was not illegal then, it is not illegal now. Elgin then sold it legally to the British Museum who since then has protected it.

    As i said, no court will say Greece has right to it.
    And even if the British Museum wanted to hand it back, it cannot.

    Greece should start this ball rolling and hand back every piece of art that is not Greek ... I wonder how many will go along with it.
    Last edited by Laila; 06-21-09 at 05:34 PM.


  2. #72
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    Re: Greece demands UK return Elgin marbles

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    Greece should start this ball rolling and hand back every piece of art that is not Greek ... I wonder how many will go along with it.
    Sounds good to me.

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    Re: Greece demands UK return Elgin marbles

    Quote Originally Posted by formerroadie View Post
    Sounds good to me.
    Great!

    I'll sit here and wait for that then shall i .... i wonder if it will happen before i die


  4. #74
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    Re: Greece demands UK return Elgin marbles

    Laila has made a very good case as to why these items now belong to the British. They were legally purchased.

    That said, they are a major part of Greek history and I can understand why the Greeks feel so strongly about wanting them back. They were originally taken illegally.

    In the U.S., for example, if someone steals the property of another, then sells it to someone else, the original owner still has a legal ownership right to the property. There are legal proceedings to to address the money the legal "purchaser" is out, but the bottom line is that the courts recognize that third party interest does not negate original ownership rights. Now I understand that this has nothing to do with the situation between the U.K. and Greece, but I'm just providing a backdrop so you understand where I get my point of view from.

    Ideally the U.K. would work out an arrangement with Greece on these marbles or sell them back maybe. I don't know.

    I don't view the U.K. as wrong in wanting to retain them, and I don't view Greece as wrong in wanting to recover them.
    *insert profound statement here*

  5. #75
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    Re: Greece demands UK return Elgin marbles

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    Ideally the U.K. would work out an arrangement with Greece on these marbles or sell them back maybe. I don't know.
    We shouldn't sell them. We should loan them for half a year to Greece to display in their Museum but only if they recognise that it is legally UK's otherwise what guarantee do we have it will be returned?

    The Greek government won't go to an international court on this as it knows full well under international law they were acquired legally from the internationally recognised government of the area at the time.

    Maybe we should hand it to the Turks ...
    Last edited by Laila; 06-21-09 at 05:51 PM.


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    Re: Greece demands UK return Elgin marbles

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    Laila has made a very good case as to why these items now belong to the British. They were legally purchased.
    Knowingly purchasing antiquities looted by an occupying military force is not "legal". In such cases both the purchaser and the seller are criminally liable.
    Last edited by Agent Ferris; 06-21-09 at 05:55 PM.

  7. #77
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    Re: Greece demands UK return Elgin marbles

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Purchasing antiquities looted by an occupying military force is not "legal". In such cases both the purchaser and the seller are criminally liable.
    Occupying military force

    That same argument can be used for any other country.
    US/Native Americans.
    Australia/Aborigines ....
    Can we ask for the return of gold that was taken by the Romans?
    Britain and half the world .... France, Italy, Denmark .... Egypt, Arabs, Turks .... Alot of Empires and "occupying military forces"

    This occured during the period of enlightenment and if the Greeks really believe they have a leg to stand on legally, why not take UK to court for it?
    Last edited by Laila; 06-21-09 at 06:00 PM.


  8. #78
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    Re: Greece demands UK return Elgin marbles

    Quote Originally Posted by B L Zeebub View Post
    have you found your marbles?
    She has always struck me as being in full possession of her marbles.

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    Re: Greece demands UK return Elgin marbles

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    Occupying military force
    Yes the were conquered and their antiquities were looted.

    That same argument can be used for any other country.
    US/Native Americans.
    Australia/Aborigines ....

    Looting of Native American archaeological sites

    Jack Lee Harelson looting Elephant Mountain Cave in the Black Rock Desert of Nevada.

    Throughout the history of the United States Native American archaeological sites have been looted, destroying religious sites and relics that date back several hundred years. Many Indian burial sites and sacred grounds have been systematically plundered and destroyed until the 1957 dispute about the Gasquet-Orleans Road. The GO road in what is now the Six Rivers National Forest in the Siskyou Mountain Range was the first logging project that raised public Indian opposition. After several legal disputes and lawsuits, including the 1978 Indian Religious Freedom Act, the case was decided at the Supreme Court.[13]

    in 1990, the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act (NAGPRA) became the primary federal legislation pertaining to graves and human remains in archaeological contexts. The act "establishes definitions of burial sites, cultural affiliation, cultural items, associated and unassociated funerary objects, sacred objects, cultural patrimony, Indian tribes, museums, Native Americans and Native Hawaiians, right of possession and tribal land."[14]

    In 2002 Federal grand jurors have accused two men, Steven Scott Tripp, 40, of Farmington, and William Thomas Cooksey, 53, of Union, of looting and violating the integrity of an American Indian burial site at southeast Missouri's Wappapello Lake. The looters "illegally excavated, removed, damaged and defaced archaeological resources, and that by doing so they caused at least $1,000 in damage. Gary Stilts, the Army Corps' operations manager there, estimated the damage to be about $14,000".[15] Stilts said about the looting:

    It's a sacred thing. None of us would want anyone digging in our ancestor's grave".


    In 1995, authorities were informed about the looting of Elephant Mountain Cave, located on government property in the Black Rock Desert of Nevada. Jack Lee Harelson, a former insurance agent, looted the site for years, uncovering two burial sites, grave goods, obsidian blades and deer-hoof rattles. Harelson decapitated the two 2000 year old corpses and buried the heads in plastic garbage bags in his backyard. In 1996 a federal court in Oregon found Harelson guilty of corpse abuse and possession of stolen property, resulting in a $20,000 fine and 30 days in jail. (The conviction of corpse abuse was later revoked because the statute of limitations had expired.) In 2002 a federal administrative judge issued a civil penalty of $2.5 million for Harelson for destruction of archaeological resources. [16]

    James Patrick Barker, a Bureau of Land Management (BLM) archaeologist for the state of Nevada, describes the Elephant Mountain Cave as one of the most significant sites of the Great Basin. One pair of sandals plundered by Harelson was later estimated to be 10.000 years old, making them one of the oldest pieces of footwear worldwide.[17]

    On December 5, 2005 six Ohio residents, Daniel Fisher, 41, and Thomas J. Luecke, 40, of Cincinnati; Richard Kirk, 56, of Stout; Joseph M. Mercurio, 44, and Tanya C. Mercurio, 43, of Manchester; and David Whitling, 47, of Bellefontaine, entered federal ground to dig for artifacts, using "rakes and digging implements to disturb the surface of the ground, creating holes and displacing archaeological sediment in violation of the federal Archaeological Resources Protection Act". The looted site at Barren River Lake includes Early Woodlands ceramics dating back roughly to 1500 to 300 B.C. They looters were sentenced to probation by Judge Thomas B. Russell in federal court after pleading guilty.[18]

    Looting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Can we ask for the return of gold that was taken by the Romans?
    Can you provide proof of ownership?

  10. #80
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    Re: Greece demands UK return Elgin marbles

    I'm sorry to heat that Greece has lost its marbles.
    Quod scripsi, scripsi

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