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France considers banning the burqa

PeteEU said:
There is nothing in the Koran about the Burqa, hence it is not part of Islam.
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Why is that relevant? If a woman wants to wear the burqa, if she chooses to wear the burqa, what is France to say that she should not?

PeteEU said:
What it is part off is local traditions in the region, which comes from in part the subjugation of women by any and all means by men. Women are property and hence need to be "protected" from the competition and covering them up is a great way of doing so. So yes, the Burqa is a symbol of oppression of women pure and simple. It is no different than a chastity belt from the middle ages.. I doubt that you would agree with them now would you?
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Whether it is religious or cultural is an irrelevant distinction. What is relevant is that the burqa is part of the traditions of certain peoples. They should be respected.

If a woman chose to be put into a chastity belt, she should be allowed that as well.

People should be allowed to live their lives as they will, with minimal interference from government. Government certainly has no business telling anyone what they can and cannot wear.
 
I think there is all the difference in the world between a woman wearing a burka because she is oppressed and because she chooses.

I think, though this may not always be the case, that in Western societies, it is a choice and usually a political choice.

I do understand not being able to wear them at school and not being able to do certain jobs in them. They make communication very difficult and you do not necessarily know who is underneath unless you know them very well.

However, when you get to the hijab, I think any kind of denial is a denial of that person's rights.

I remember seeing on tv a young woman in Turkey looking for a 'really ugly wig' because she could not wear a hijab and go to University. To her, to her herself, it was very important to do this.

Not allowing people to wear the hijab is arguably discrimination.

Headscarf Ban Causes Discrimination-EP- SELCUK GULTASLI

Headscarf ban for German teachers is denounced | Spero News
 
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Agent Ferris said:
Codified anti-peer pressure laws? Are you joking?
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Where did I say that? I am only stating the fact that wearing the burqa is placed on girls at a young age by male and female members of the family. It has nothing to do with religion but an attempt by a male dominated traditional society to control the female sex.

What would you do if you knew that small girls are being forced by their fathers to cover up? You are trying to defend the free will of these women, but what if there is no free will involved? What if they refused to wear the burqa, the consequences would be a beating? Where is the free will in that?

The French like other nations have looked at the situation have determined that something must be done to help women in that part of society to break away from a male dominated oppression. In Denmark we were forced to ban all marriage by people under 24 with someone from outside Denmark, just to some how curb all the forced marriages in the Turkish/Kurdish/Pakistani/Iraqi/Somalia community. I dont like the law one bit, nore would I like a law banning the burqa but I understand its reasoning and frankly some what support it.
 
Any talk about "choice" needs to take into account consequences. If there are no consequences involved in a choice, one is making a true choice. If there are consequences involved, especially if they are negative, the term "choice" really does not apply.

If women are beaten if they don't wear a burka, there is no real choice. If they have smileys cut into their mouth, there is no real choice. If all the people they know ostracize them, there is no real choice. If they are killed by their brother, father or husband for "honor", there is no real choice, and if this happens to ANY woman, it happens to all because of the level of intimidation involved.

In situations where oppression is so systematic that the consequences for not doing something can be horrific, OF COURSE people will say it's their "choice". They will say it's their choice because there are negative consequences for even saying it isn't their choice. Duh! Don't people even think about the social dynamics involved before they comment?

If all a woman knows is that she stands the liklihood of being raped by those outside her family if she doesn't comply, and stands the chance of being ostracized by her family or worse if she doesn't comply, it is both logical and reasonable for her to chose to wear it -- given those parameters. The problem here in addressing the issue of "choice", though, is that the whole system is fvcked up, and THAT'S what people should be addressing since it is neither logical nor reasonable for a woman to mummify herself given a system that is not so fvcked up. .
 
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B L Zeebub said:
Which law are you talking about worm, the Turkish law that was established by Atatürk, or the law that some are attempting to bring in in France?
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The Turkish law , of course..And it is so strange...there must be more to this..

The French "law" is but a proposal, and may not go too far.
 
PeteEU said:
What would you do if you knew that small girls are being forced by their fathers to cover up? You are trying to defend the free will of these women, but what if there is no free will involved? What if they refused to wear the burqa, the consequences would be a beating? Where is the free will in that?
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Children have "free will"? What planet are you living on?

If parents believe it appropriate for their daughters to wear a burqa, that is the parents' right, and none have the right to challenge that (obvious exceptions such as in school, et cetera). Children are told to wear clothes they dislike all the time; there is no issue of free will in this.

PeteEU said:
The French like other nations have looked at the situation have determined that something must be done to help women in that part of society to break away from a male dominated oppression. In Denmark we were forced to ban all marriage by people under 24 with someone from outside Denmark, just to some how curb all the forced marriages in the Turkish/Kurdish/Pakistani/Iraqi/Somalia community. I dont like the law one bit, nore would I like a law banning the burqa but I understand its reasoning and frankly some what support it.
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Reasoning? You call telling adults (24 is adult) whom they can marry just so that they won't somehow marry a child to be reasoning? You call being "forced" into this to be "reasoning?

That's not reasoning, that's dictatorial hogwash. You're merely swapping what might be oppression for what is decidedly oppression.
 
kaya'08 said:
Well actually its not illegal to wear headscarfs in public.
Its illegal to wear them in government run institutions such as the police force, educational academies, etc. In public and on the street is perfectly acceptable, though they are not encouraged to do so.
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This makes a lot more sense.
 
celticlord said:
Whether it is religious or cultural is an irrelevant distinction. What is relevant is that the burqa is part of the traditions of certain peoples. They should be respected.

If a woman chose to be put into a chastity belt, she should be allowed that as well.

People should be allowed to live their lives as they will, with minimal interference from government. Government certainly has no business telling anyone what they can and cannot wear.
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So you are saying that if the people of the Sub Sahara want to mutilate their girls genitalia because it is "part of their tradition" then it is fine and dandy?

And yes it is comparable.
 
PeteEU said:
Where did I say that? I am only stating the fact that wearing the burqa is placed on girls at a young age by male and female members of the family. It has nothing to do with religion but an attempt by a male dominated traditional society to control the female sex.

What would you do if you knew that small girls are being forced by their fathers to cover up? You are trying to defend the free will of these women, but what if there is no free will involved? What if they refused to wear the burqa, the consequences would be a beating? Where is the free will in that?
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Where I come from small girls are forced to attend school for 8 hours a day by the Gov't. And you're complaining about La Familia pressure for a certain cultural identity.

There are programs to remove children from hostile environments. Children reject their family's culture all the time; it's common.

You should really push for banning consequential beatings, as that is the problem you have... not the burqas.

The French like other nations have looked at the situation have determined that something must be done to help women in that part of society to break away from a male dominated oppression. In Denmark we were forced to ban all marriage by people under 24 with someone from outside Denmark, just to some how curb all the forced marriages in the Turkish/Kurdish/Pakistani/Iraqi/Somalia community. I dont like the law one bit, nore would I like a law banning the burqa but I understand its reasoning and frankly some what support it.
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There are more useful and less vulgar gestures toward the Islamic community than banning Burqas. It is not the cloth that the nations have problems with it is the symbolism of the cloth, instilled by an archaic tradition... An open war on the cultural symbolism of the Burqa is an automatic way to spawn a generation of angry Muslims (as it is oppression).

Oppressive Fathers die. Lead the new generation into a culture integration; don't deny them their freedoms.
 
PeteEU said:
So you are saying that if the people of the Sub Sahara want to mutilate their girls genitalia because it is "part of their tradition" then it is fine and dandy?

And yes it is comparable.
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I don't know about France but this Burka wearing is not done by very many people it seems.

Muslim groups insist that only a few dozen women in the Netherlands wear the burka, and that the ban is a distraction. The Muslims and Government Contact Body said: “Only a handful of Muslims actually wear burkas. Let us focus our energy on what we have in common. This is not a big problem.”
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Dutch unveil the toughest face in Europe with a ban on the burka - Times Online

I find it more worrying where it laps over to the hijab and as far as that is concerned you will know that we in the UK see that very differently to female circumcision which is illegal.
 
celticlord said:
Children have "free will"? What planet are you living on?

If parents believe it appropriate for their daughters to wear a burqa, that is the parents' right, and none have the right to challenge that (obvious exceptions such as in school, et cetera). Children are told to wear clothes they dislike all the time; there is no issue of free will in this.
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So you believe that a bunch of parents that force their girls to wear a burqa will have the "free will" to say hell no when they reach 18 years old? Give me a break. That child is going to be brainwashed by religious dogma. Just look at the bible freaks in the US that exploit their children and brainwash them with bible crap that even makes normal priests puke. And in Nigeria, those girls that actually do stand up and say no.. get burned as witches..

So next you are going to tell me that because it is a tradition in Nigeria to burn disobedient Christian girls at the stake, then it should be allowed?

Reasoning? You call telling adults (24 is adult) whom they can marry just so that they won't somehow marry a child to be reasoning? You call being "forced" into this to be "reasoning?

That's not reasoning, that's dictatorial hogwash. You're merely swapping what might be oppression for what is decidedly oppression.
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Forced marriages was and still is a real problem in Europe and even in the US. You might gloss over it because of your anal appreciation of "religious freedom", but it is there. Girls are forced to marry older men as soon as they legally can, and usually from the "home land".. Once married then the man and his closest family legally can immigrate to Europe. Now as I said; I dont like the law but I hate more the forced marriages and the torture these girls are put through.

In the US, you have that paedophile sect in Texas that was busted a few years ago. They force their girls to marry older men, and even force the boys out so not to have "competition". Does the US do anything about it? Hell no, you allow their paedophilia to continue.

At least we in Europe try to protect children and women from a male dominated society that has for centuries seen both as "property" and no better than cows and horses.
 
alexa said:
I don't know about France but this Burka wearing is not done by very many people it seems.
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It aint. Usualy from my experience it is older women who grew up in the oppression that wear them out of "they always have". Those young women who do wear it, are either forced to do so by their fathers and brothers or have been brainwashed by the same to do so. There is very little free will there.

Dutch unveil the toughest face in Europe with a ban on the burka - Times Online

I find it more worrying where it laps over to the hijab and as far as that is concerned you will know that we in the UK see that very differently to female circumcision which is illegal.
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Female circumcision is illegal in all European countries as is forced marriage. Problem is proving the latter. Usually it is only proven when the women ends up in the morgue after her husband/father/brother killed her because she wanted a divorce or to leave.
 
PeteEU said:
So you are saying that if the people of the Sub Sahara want to mutilate their girls genitalia because it is "part of their tradition" then it is fine and dandy?
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I am saying no such thing. France is not Sub Saharan Africa and the burqa is not part of female genital mutilation.

PeteEU said:
And yes it is comparable.
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No it isn't. Clothing is not mutilation.
 
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France does not, and never has had, the same commitment to individualism, pluralism, and free speech that the U.S. does.

Personally, I find the idea of a burqa pretty freaking appalling. I find the idea of telling women that they can't wear them, though, even more appalling.

This is NOT government's role.
 
Arch Enemy said:
Where I come from small girls are forced to attend school for 8 hours a day by the Gov't. And you're complaining about La Familia pressure for a certain cultural identity.

There are programs to remove children from hostile environments. Children reject their family's culture all the time; it's common.

You should really push for banning consequential beatings, as that is the problem you have... not the burqas.
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So you are saying that if the parents believe that the child should not get treatment for a curable illness, or should have her head shaved and tattooed then it is up to them? How about a boy that is forced to wear girls cloths because the parents wanted a girl?

And who said we had a problem? It is already illegal like in the US, to beat your child. If anything the US has a serious problem with children's rights as they allow those paedophile sects to go on all in the name of religious freedom.


There are more useful and less vulgar gestures toward the Islamic community than banning Burqas. It is not the cloth that the nations have problems with it is the symbolism of the cloth, instilled by an archaic tradition... An open war on the cultural symbolism of the Burqa is an automatic way to spawn a generation of angry Muslims (as it is oppression).

Oppressive Fathers die. Lead the new generation into a culture integration; don't deny them their freedoms.
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Oppressive fathers pass on their oppression to their sons. Quite a large number of the honor killings are done by brothers for example. As long as we dont do anything the oppression will continue, especially if there are forced marriages with "people from the homeland".

I fully understand why the French are thinking of doing this and why many governments have floated the idea too. All depends on how they formulate the law, and as long as it does not solely target muslims alone then I have no real problems with it. As always it depends on the wording.
 
PeteEU said:
In the US, you have that paedophile sect in Texas that was busted a few years ago. They force their girls to marry older men, and even force the boys out so not to have "competition". Does the US do anything about it? Hell no, you allow their paedophilia to continue.

At least we in Europe try to protect children and women from a male dominated society that has for centuries seen both as "property" and no better than cows and horses.
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I think he's talking about the LDS fundamentalists, and the government raided their compound and removed all of the children to address the issue of sexual abuse of children.

In Utah, the state law was changed to make marrying underaged girls more difficult, but many of these marriages aren't state-sanctioned anyway. They occur under the table, in local places of worship, sanctioned by local authorities.

But, I do support dealing with the already criminal behavior that these groups engage in.
 
Being fashion conscious is part of French national identity. They are just being themselves by taking the notion of "fashion police" seriously.
 
PeteEU said:
It is already illegal like in the US, to beat your child. If anything the US has a serious problem with children's rights as they allow those paedophile sects to go on all in the name of religious freedom.
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YOu need to get your facts straight. Where child molestation is reported, or even abuse, the authorities have acted (and in some cases, overreacted).
 
PeteEU said:
It aint. Usualy from my experience it is older women who grew up in the oppression that wear them out of "they always have". Those young women who do wear it, are either forced to do so by their fathers and brothers or have been brainwashed by the same to do so. There is very little free will there.
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well my only experience of it here was two young women in Top Shop. I have never, ever seen a young child in a burka in the United Kingdom and I am sure that would be reported

PeteEU said:
Female circumcision is illegal in all European countries as is forced marriage. Problem is proving the latter. Usually it is only proven when the women ends up in the morgue after her husband/father/brother killed her because she wanted a divorce or to leave.
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This used to be done regularly by Doctors in Harley Street until it was made illegal. In some ways making it illegal makes it more dangerous. It is simply something our police need to work on but I get the feeling you seem to be suggesting that this is something all Muslim's are up to and I don't think there is evidence for that. Rather from what I have heard it seems rather to be first generation who disappear from school so that grandmother can do it and they absolutely believe it is the right things to do.

Yes, we have other problems. We have the occasional 'honour killing' and the arranged against wishes marriage but we also have plenty of crimes among the general population. We have been hearing of the most awful crimes parents have committed against their tiny infants recently and that is very much only the tip of the ice burg.


Are you saying this sort of behaviour is typical of British Muslim's and if so please provide sources.
 
Gardener said:
Any talk about "choice" needs to take into account consequences. If there are no consequences involved in a choice, one is making a true choice. If there are consequences involved, especially if they are negative, the term "choice" really does not apply.

If women are beaten if they don't wear a burka, there is no real choice. If they have smileys cut into their mouth, there is no real choice. If all the people they know ostracize them, there is no real choice. If they are killed by their brother, father or husband for "honor", there is no real choice, and if this happens to ANY woman, it happens to all because of the level of intimidation involved.

In situations where oppression is so systematic that the consequences for not doing something can be horrific, OF COURSE people will say it's their "choice". They will say it's their choice because there are negative consequences for even saying it isn't their choice. Duh! Don't people even think about the social dynamics involved before they comment?

If all a woman knows is that she stands the liklihood of being raped by those outside her family if she doesn't comply, and stands the chance of being ostracized by her family or worse if she doesn't comply, it is both logical and reasonable for her to chose to wear it -- given those parameters. The problem here in addressing the issue of "choice", though, is that the whole system is fvcked up, and THAT'S what people should be addressing since it is neither logical nor reasonable for a woman to mummify herself given a system that is not so fvcked up. .
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All good points.

The reason many young French Muslim girls are "chosing" to cover themselves is because those who don't are often verbally and physically attacked. This is particularly common in the poorest suburbs. Many were even raped. In this kind of environment any girl would "chose" to cover her head. Self-preservation and all. What makes it even sadder is that the majority of these attacks were committed by their male counterparts. Young French Muslim boys.

But there is also a very strong movement in the same demographic that actually chose to wear the veil for political reasons. These girls don't live in the ghetto, their parents are usually well-off and they are highly educated. They are proud of their heritage and refuse to give in to the extreme secularism.

As for the ones who wear the full burka they are a very small minority of recently arrived immigrants. They haven't had time to adapt to their new environment yet. I think France is overreacting to this really minor problem.
 
Catz Part Deux said:
YOu need to get your facts straight. Where child molestation is reported, or even abuse, the authorities have acted (and in some cases, overreacted).
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Oh I have my facts right... not my fault that your legal system protects those freaks from being brought to justice.
 
Catz Part Deux said:
I think he's talking about the LDS fundamentalists, and the government raided their compound and removed all of the children to address the issue of sexual abuse of children.
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The reference to Texas has to be that FLDS case, where the state removed some 400 kids from the Yearning For Zion ranch on what turned out to be very very bad evidence. Ended up a black eye for the authorities because of their overreaction and overreach.
 
alexa said:
well my only experience of it here was two young women in Top Shop. I have never, ever seen a young child in a burka in the United Kingdom and I am sure that would be reported
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Young children are usually not put in burkas. Only when girls start to "evolve" their female parts, that is when the burkas come on. So 12+ depending on the situation. Thankfully we are talking about a very small minority these days.

This used to be done regularly by Doctors in Harley Street until it was made illegal. In some ways making it illegal makes it more dangerous. It is simply something our police need to work on but I get the feeling you seem to be suggesting that this is something all Muslim's are up to and I don't think there is evidence for that. Rather from what I have heard it seems rather to be first generation who disappear from school so that grandmother can do it and they absolutely believe it is the right things to do.

Yes, we have other problems. We have the occasional 'honour killing' and the arranged against wishes marriage but we also have plenty of crimes among the general population. We have been hearing of the most awful crimes parents have committed against their tiny infants recently and that is very much only the tip of the ice burg.


Are you saying this sort of behaviour is typical of British Muslim's and if so please provide sources.
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LOL no, I never said it was a "typical behaviour" of any Muslims living in Europe. We are talking about a small minority of ultra conservative traditionalists that refuse to integrate into society. Most muslims I know dont force their girls to wear burqas and allow their girls to date non muslims.. often it is the grandparents that are in "shock" over it, but they are "dieing off" For one, female circumcision is isolated to uneducated peoples from only certain countries like Egypt, Sudan and Somalia.... not many of those around in the UK (relatively speaking to other muslims from other countries).
 
PeteEU said:
LOL no, I never said it was a "typical behaviour" of any Muslims living in Europe. We are talking about a small minority of ultra conservative traditionalists that refuse to integrate into society. Most muslims I know dont force their girls to wear burqas and allow their girls to date non muslims.. often it is the grandparents that are in "shock" over it, but they are "dieing off" For one, female circumcision is isolated to uneducated peoples from only certain countries like Egypt, Sudan and Somalia.... not many of those around in the UK (relatively speaking to other muslims from other countries).
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So, in other words, you admit making a mountain out of a molehill, and oppressing the entirety of Muslim women in order to liberate the tiniest of fractions thereof.

And people wonder why some say the law is an ass!:doh
 
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