Page 16 of 16 FirstFirst ... 6141516
Results 151 to 156 of 156

Thread: France considers banning the burqa

  1. #151
    Guru

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Last Seen
    10-29-17 @ 02:04 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    4,684

    Re: France considers banning the burqa

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Young children are usually not put in burkas. Only when girls start to "evolve" their female parts, that is when the burkas come on. So 12+ depending on the situation. Thankfully we are talking about a very small minority these days.
    I don't think we have a tradition of people being brought up to wear burkas at all.

    Prior to 9/11 the only time I had seen women in Burkas was when I lived in London 20 years ago and that was the odd one who would come over on a holiday.

    There certainly was some wearing of them after 9/11 but I think that was more a political gesture or statement in most cases. One woman interviewed said she had taken to wearing it because she could get ready easier in the morning.

    If we have any oppression going on on this level I think it will be a new happening.

  2. #152
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Past the edge of the universe, through the singularity, and out the other side.
    Last Seen
    09-01-10 @ 05:23 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    4,324

    Re: France considers banning the burqa

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Where did I say that?
    Me: "The Burqa is not oppressive unless one is forced to wear it"

    You: "Either it is direct force or because of "peer" pressure"

    I am only stating the fact that wearing the burqa is placed on girls at a young age by male and female members of the family. It has nothing to do with religion but an attempt by a male dominated traditional society to control the female sex.
    So it is your honest assertion that no Muslim woman wears the Burqa voluntarily?

    A codified law forcing one to wear the Burqa is unjust, a codified law forcing one not to wear the Burqa is equally unjust.

    What would you do if you knew that small girls are being forced by their fathers to cover up? You are trying to defend the free will of these women, but what if there is no free will involved? What if they refused to wear the burqa, the consequences would be a beating? Where is the free will in that?

    The French like other nations have looked at the situation have determined that something must be done to help women in that part of society to break away from a male dominated oppression. In Denmark we were forced to ban all marriage by people under 24 with someone from outside Denmark, just to some how curb all the forced marriages in the Turkish/Kurdish/Pakistani/Iraqi/Somalia community. I dont like the law one bit, nore would I like a law banning the burqa but I understand its reasoning and frankly some what support it.
    Look I'm not standing up for patriarchal oppression, however, the fact remains that some (if not most) Muslim women who wear the burqa CHOOSE to wear the Burqa especially in liberal democracies; such as, ours, and find it to be patronizing when westerners claim that wearing the Burqa is an actual sign of gender inequality in the Muslim world.

    Not to mention how Islamists will play this BS: "see look Muslim women are being oppressed and denied their religious freedom in the west."

    Now if we want to get into real oppression of women under Sharia then fine have at it. We can start with unequal inheritance, codified allowance of spousal abuse, enforced burqa wearing through religious police persecution (see Iran, Saudi Arabia) etc etc et al. But the Burqa doesn't actually enter into this real discussion, and when a liberal democracy seeks to implement state enforced dress code laws singling out a particular ethnic demographic then it's time to start reavaluating what it really important.
    Last edited by Agent Ferris; 06-21-09 at 03:00 PM.

  3. #153
    Sage
    PeteEU's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Denmark
    Last Seen
    12-10-17 @ 07:36 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    29,089

    Re: France considers banning the burqa

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Look I'm not standing up for patriarchal oppression, however, the fact remains that some (if not most) Muslim women who wear the burqa CHOOSE to wear the Burqa especially in liberal democracies; such as, ours, and find it to be patronizing when westerners claim that wearing the Burqa is an actual sign of gender inequality in the Muslim world.
    Because it is and the truth hurts. Plus how do we know that they choose to wear it.. just because they say so? A hostage can say many things if they have a gun to their head after all.

    Look, I have zero problems with muslim women wearing them as long as it is a choice. The problem arises when it is not a choice and when can we be sure that it is choice... and that is in some small amounts of cases.

    When family pressure forces women to act or do things, then I believe it is the duty of society to say stop and protect said women. We do it in cases of abuse, and if proven .. forced marriages and female circumcision.

    We should be able to some how protect women from being forced to wear burkas against their will. So yes I would prefer not to have any laws regarding this, but since we have a small minority that use it as a way to put down women and control them, then yes we need to deal with it. Either ban the burka, kick the people doing the forcing out of the country to practice their hatred back home or put in a system that protects women that are brave enough to say "hell no". It is not acceptable in a modern society to treat women as second class citizens and property.

    Not to mention how Islamists will play this BS: "see look Muslim women are being oppressed and denied their religious freedom in the west."
    nothing to do with religion and most muslims know that. Just ask them to point it out in the koran.. they cant. But yea it will be used by the religious fanatics to spur up the masses, but they will use anything to do that. They dont need an excuse they can just make **** up which they do often. Look at the cartoon case.. the morons had to add really offensive cartoons of their own doing to actually create a case for themselves back "home".

    Now if we want to get into real oppression of women under Sharia then fine have at it. We can start with unequal inheritance, codified allowance of spousal abuse, enforced burqa wearing through religious police persecution (see Iran, Saudi Arabia) etc etc et al. But the Burqa doesn't actually enter into this real discussion, and when a liberal democracy seeks to implement state enforced dress code laws singling out a particular ethnic demographic then it's time to start reavaluating what it really important.
    We already have state enforced dress codes, and I would claim the US has more than Europe. Women in Europe can go to the beaches and go topless.. you cant in the US I believe... unless you in the New York Subway It is against the law to go nakkid outside your own door in all countries, that is state enforced dress codes. We also require by law that military and civilian law enforcement have uniforms.. aka state enforced dress codes.

    Now in my opinion this law if it ever happens, should be more along the lines that if a woman/man does not want to wear any form of religious clothing or accessories in public or private, then it is his or her right to do so and anyone attempting to "force" the issue can be fined or put in jail.
    PeteEU

  4. #154
    Sage
    PeteEU's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Denmark
    Last Seen
    12-10-17 @ 07:36 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    29,089

    Re: France considers banning the burqa

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    I don't think we have a tradition of people being brought up to wear burkas at all.
    In general no, but there are a small minority still caught in the traditions of the "old country" so to say. Plus you have a lot of Muslims from areas of the world that traditionally dont have much burka wearing, aka Pakistan and India .. relatively speaking that is.

    Prior to 9/11 the only time I had seen women in Burkas was when I lived in London 20 years ago and that was the odd one who would come over on a holiday.

    There certainly was some wearing of them after 9/11 but I think that was more a political gesture or statement in most cases. One woman interviewed said she had taken to wearing it because she could get ready easier in the morning.

    If we have any oppression going on on this level I think it will be a new happening.
    That will come no matter what. Our only way to break the bonds of oppression in the Islamic world, especially in the highly conservative and traditional parts, is to free women. It worked for our society 50 to 100 years ago and it can work in the Islamic world. But the last decade of US policy especially has really hurt the fight against extremists as it has empowered them big time and the oppression of women in the Islamic world has grown, even in traditionally "western" countries like Malaysia and Turkey.

    Will a burka or similar "ban" help or make it worse? I think it will help if done right but the question is really on the wording of the law and so on, and there is not much to go on atm as far as I see. Goal should be to protect women from male domination regardless if you muslim, christian or jewish.
    PeteEU

  5. #155
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Past the edge of the universe, through the singularity, and out the other side.
    Last Seen
    09-01-10 @ 05:23 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    4,324

    Re: France considers banning the burqa

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Because it is and the truth hurts. Plus how do we know that they choose to wear it.. just because they say so? A hostage can say many things if they have a gun to their head after all.
    So now all Muslim women who say that they choose to wear the Burqa are suffering from Stockholm syndrome? I suspect you might have some evidentiary support for this argument?

    Look, I have zero problems with muslim women wearing them as long as it is a choice. The problem arises when it is not a choice and when can we be sure that it is choice... and that is in some small amounts of cases.
    So your solution for some Muslim women not having a choice and being forced to wear the Burqa is to eliminate all choice in the matter whatsoever?

    When family pressure forces women to act or do things, then I believe it is the duty of society to say stop and protect said women. We do it in cases of abuse, and if proven .. forced marriages and female circumcision.
    So when a father tells his daughter she can't wear a short skirt it is the states right to intervene?

    We should be able to some how protect women from being forced to wear burkas against their will.
    We do, through the criminalization of physical abuse and threats. You know, actual crimes.

    So yes I would prefer not to have any laws regarding this, but since we have a small minority that use it as a way to put down women and control them, then yes we need to deal with it. Either ban the burka, kick the people doing the forcing out of the country to practice their hatred back home or put in a system that protects women that are brave enough to say "hell no". It is not acceptable in a modern society to treat women as second class citizens and property.
    We already have systems that protect women brave enough to say "hell no" to wearing the Burqa, additionally our system protects women who say "**** you I want to wear a Burqa it is my right as a free citizen."


    nothing to do with religion and most muslims know that. Just ask them to point it out in the koran..
    Read the Hadiths.

    they cant. But yea it will be used by the religious fanatics to spur up the masses, but they will use anything to do that. They dont need an excuse they can just make **** up which they do often. Look at the cartoon case.. the morons had to add really offensive cartoons of their own doing to actually create a case for themselves back "home".
    Well that's a given but why give them additional ammo when it is clearly not necessary?


    We already have state enforced dress codes, and I would claim the US has more than Europe. Women in Europe can go to the beaches and go topless.. you cant in the US I believe... unless you in the New York Subway It is against the law to go nakkid outside your own door in all countries, that is state enforced dress codes. We also require by law that military and civilian law enforcement have uniforms.. aka state enforced dress codes.

    Now in my opinion this law if it ever happens, should be more along the lines that if a woman/man does not want to wear any form of religious clothing or accessories in public or private, then it is his or her right to do so and anyone attempting to "force" the issue can be fined or put in jail.
    Our dress code laws do not target a single minority segment of the population. Anti-nudity laws are enforced against both men and women.

  6. #156
    Guru

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Last Seen
    10-29-17 @ 02:04 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    4,684

    Re: France considers banning the burqa

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    In general no, but there are a small minority still caught in the traditions of the "old country" so to say. Plus you have a lot of Muslims from areas of the world that traditionally dont have much burka wearing, aka Pakistan and India .. relatively speaking that is.



    That will come no matter what. Our only way to break the bonds of oppression in the Islamic world, especially in the highly conservative and traditional parts, is to free women. It worked for our society 50 to 100 years ago and it can work in the Islamic world. But the last decade of US policy especially has really hurt the fight against extremists as it has empowered them big time and the oppression of women in the Islamic world has grown, even in traditionally "western" countries like Malaysia and Turkey.

    Will a burka or similar "ban" help or make it worse? I think it will help if done right but the question is really on the wording of the law and so on, and there is not much to go on atm as far as I see. Goal should be to protect women from male domination regardless if you muslim, christian or jewish.
    I very much understand the difficulties of people doing certain kinds of work dressed in burkas or any thing which covers everything but the eyes.

    I'm sure when I read a new NHS terms of service agreement one of the things which was not to be included was such wear. I am sure that this will take care of much of the problem.

    Regarding children. Muslim children like all children here are not allowed to be abused. If they are found to be abused in any way then that is the time to take action just like with any other people.

    But hey, here is another apparent reason for not wearing the burka

    Conservative Muslim dress codes may be causing vitamin D deficiency in women by limiting their exposure to sunlight, humans' main source for the vitamin, according to new research.

    Scientists had previously found high rates of vitamin D deficiency in Arab and East Indian women living in the United Arab Emirates. A follow-up study investigated the effect of vitamin D supplements on 178 UAE women, many of whom covered themselves entirely, faces and hands included, when outside their homes. Only two of the women did not have vitamin D deficiency prior to receiving supplements. The results were published by a team of scientists in the June issue of the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition.
    Western Resistance: UK: Muslim Burkas Damage Babies' Health

    I think the thing that is of real importance here is not to put the label of being oppressed on these women. It can be the case and when it is it needs to be dealt with but in Western countries at the moment there is no reason to assume it is the case.

    Head scarves or hijabs however I think are a completely different issue.

    Edit - what I am meaning by that is that I am not desperately keen on the burkas myself but I do not believe we should not allow the wearing of the headscarf as happens in France and Turkey and increasingly in other European countries like that German link I gave earlier.
    Last edited by alexa; 06-21-09 at 04:32 PM.

Page 16 of 16 FirstFirst ... 6141516

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •