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Thread: France considers banning the burqa

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    Re: France considers banning the burqa

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    Where I come from small girls are forced to attend school for 8 hours a day by the Gov't. And you're complaining about La Familia pressure for a certain cultural identity.

    There are programs to remove children from hostile environments. Children reject their family's culture all the time; it's common.

    You should really push for banning consequential beatings, as that is the problem you have... not the burqas.
    So you are saying that if the parents believe that the child should not get treatment for a curable illness, or should have her head shaved and tattooed then it is up to them? How about a boy that is forced to wear girls cloths because the parents wanted a girl?

    And who said we had a problem? It is already illegal like in the US, to beat your child. If anything the US has a serious problem with children's rights as they allow those paedophile sects to go on all in the name of religious freedom.


    There are more useful and less vulgar gestures toward the Islamic community than banning Burqas. It is not the cloth that the nations have problems with it is the symbolism of the cloth, instilled by an archaic tradition... An open war on the cultural symbolism of the Burqa is an automatic way to spawn a generation of angry Muslims (as it is oppression).

    Oppressive Fathers die. Lead the new generation into a culture integration; don't deny them their freedoms.
    Oppressive fathers pass on their oppression to their sons. Quite a large number of the honor killings are done by brothers for example. As long as we dont do anything the oppression will continue, especially if there are forced marriages with "people from the homeland".

    I fully understand why the French are thinking of doing this and why many governments have floated the idea too. All depends on how they formulate the law, and as long as it does not solely target muslims alone then I have no real problems with it. As always it depends on the wording.
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    Re: France considers banning the burqa

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    In the US, you have that paedophile sect in Texas that was busted a few years ago. They force their girls to marry older men, and even force the boys out so not to have "competition". Does the US do anything about it? Hell no, you allow their paedophilia to continue.

    At least we in Europe try to protect children and women from a male dominated society that has for centuries seen both as "property" and no better than cows and horses.
    I think he's talking about the LDS fundamentalists, and the government raided their compound and removed all of the children to address the issue of sexual abuse of children.

    In Utah, the state law was changed to make marrying underaged girls more difficult, but many of these marriages aren't state-sanctioned anyway. They occur under the table, in local places of worship, sanctioned by local authorities.

    But, I do support dealing with the already criminal behavior that these groups engage in.

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    Re: France considers banning the burqa

    Being fashion conscious is part of French national identity. They are just being themselves by taking the notion of "fashion police" seriously.

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    Re: France considers banning the burqa

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    It is already illegal like in the US, to beat your child. If anything the US has a serious problem with children's rights as they allow those paedophile sects to go on all in the name of religious freedom.
    YOu need to get your facts straight. Where child molestation is reported, or even abuse, the authorities have acted (and in some cases, overreacted).

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    Re: France considers banning the burqa

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    It aint. Usualy from my experience it is older women who grew up in the oppression that wear them out of "they always have". Those young women who do wear it, are either forced to do so by their fathers and brothers or have been brainwashed by the same to do so. There is very little free will there.
    well my only experience of it here was two young women in Top Shop. I have never, ever seen a young child in a burka in the United Kingdom and I am sure that would be reported

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post

    Female circumcision is illegal in all European countries as is forced marriage. Problem is proving the latter. Usually it is only proven when the women ends up in the morgue after her husband/father/brother killed her because she wanted a divorce or to leave.
    This used to be done regularly by Doctors in Harley Street until it was made illegal. In some ways making it illegal makes it more dangerous. It is simply something our police need to work on but I get the feeling you seem to be suggesting that this is something all Muslim's are up to and I don't think there is evidence for that. Rather from what I have heard it seems rather to be first generation who disappear from school so that grandmother can do it and they absolutely believe it is the right things to do.

    Yes, we have other problems. We have the occasional 'honour killing' and the arranged against wishes marriage but we also have plenty of crimes among the general population. We have been hearing of the most awful crimes parents have committed against their tiny infants recently and that is very much only the tip of the ice burg.


    Are you saying this sort of behaviour is typical of British Muslim's and if so please provide sources.

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    Re: France considers banning the burqa

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    Any talk about "choice" needs to take into account consequences. If there are no consequences involved in a choice, one is making a true choice. If there are consequences involved, especially if they are negative, the term "choice" really does not apply.

    If women are beaten if they don't wear a burka, there is no real choice. If they have smileys cut into their mouth, there is no real choice. If all the people they know ostracize them, there is no real choice. If they are killed by their brother, father or husband for "honor", there is no real choice, and if this happens to ANY woman, it happens to all because of the level of intimidation involved.

    In situations where oppression is so systematic that the consequences for not doing something can be horrific, OF COURSE people will say it's their "choice". They will say it's their choice because there are negative consequences for even saying it isn't their choice. Duh! Don't people even think about the social dynamics involved before they comment?

    If all a woman knows is that she stands the liklihood of being raped by those outside her family if she doesn't comply, and stands the chance of being ostracized by her family or worse if she doesn't comply, it is both logical and reasonable for her to chose to wear it -- given those parameters. The problem here in addressing the issue of "choice", though, is that the whole system is fvcked up, and THAT'S what people should be addressing since it is neither logical nor reasonable for a woman to mummify herself given a system that is not so fvcked up. .
    All good points.

    The reason many young French Muslim girls are "chosing" to cover themselves is because those who don't are often verbally and physically attacked. This is particularly common in the poorest suburbs. Many were even raped. In this kind of environment any girl would "chose" to cover her head. Self-preservation and all. What makes it even sadder is that the majority of these attacks were committed by their male counterparts. Young French Muslim boys.

    But there is also a very strong movement in the same demographic that actually chose to wear the veil for political reasons. These girls don't live in the ghetto, their parents are usually well-off and they are highly educated. They are proud of their heritage and refuse to give in to the extreme secularism.

    As for the ones who wear the full burka they are a very small minority of recently arrived immigrants. They haven't had time to adapt to their new environment yet. I think France is overreacting to this really minor problem.
    "Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".- Northern Irish joke

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    Re: France considers banning the burqa

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    YOu need to get your facts straight. Where child molestation is reported, or even abuse, the authorities have acted (and in some cases, overreacted).
    Oh I have my facts right... not my fault that your legal system protects those freaks from being brought to justice.
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    Re: France considers banning the burqa

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    I think he's talking about the LDS fundamentalists, and the government raided their compound and removed all of the children to address the issue of sexual abuse of children.
    The reference to Texas has to be that FLDS case, where the state removed some 400 kids from the Yearning For Zion ranch on what turned out to be very very bad evidence. Ended up a black eye for the authorities because of their overreaction and overreach.

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    Re: France considers banning the burqa

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    well my only experience of it here was two young women in Top Shop. I have never, ever seen a young child in a burka in the United Kingdom and I am sure that would be reported
    Young children are usually not put in burkas. Only when girls start to "evolve" their female parts, that is when the burkas come on. So 12+ depending on the situation. Thankfully we are talking about a very small minority these days.

    This used to be done regularly by Doctors in Harley Street until it was made illegal. In some ways making it illegal makes it more dangerous. It is simply something our police need to work on but I get the feeling you seem to be suggesting that this is something all Muslim's are up to and I don't think there is evidence for that. Rather from what I have heard it seems rather to be first generation who disappear from school so that grandmother can do it and they absolutely believe it is the right things to do.

    Yes, we have other problems. We have the occasional 'honour killing' and the arranged against wishes marriage but we also have plenty of crimes among the general population. We have been hearing of the most awful crimes parents have committed against their tiny infants recently and that is very much only the tip of the ice burg.


    Are you saying this sort of behaviour is typical of British Muslim's and if so please provide sources.
    LOL no, I never said it was a "typical behaviour" of any Muslims living in Europe. We are talking about a small minority of ultra conservative traditionalists that refuse to integrate into society. Most muslims I know dont force their girls to wear burqas and allow their girls to date non muslims.. often it is the grandparents that are in "shock" over it, but they are "dieing off" For one, female circumcision is isolated to uneducated peoples from only certain countries like Egypt, Sudan and Somalia.... not many of those around in the UK (relatively speaking to other muslims from other countries).
    PeteEU

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    Re: France considers banning the burqa

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    LOL no, I never said it was a "typical behaviour" of any Muslims living in Europe. We are talking about a small minority of ultra conservative traditionalists that refuse to integrate into society. Most muslims I know dont force their girls to wear burqas and allow their girls to date non muslims.. often it is the grandparents that are in "shock" over it, but they are "dieing off" For one, female circumcision is isolated to uneducated peoples from only certain countries like Egypt, Sudan and Somalia.... not many of those around in the UK (relatively speaking to other muslims from other countries).
    So, in other words, you admit making a mountain out of a molehill, and oppressing the entirety of Muslim women in order to liberate the tiniest of fractions thereof.

    And people wonder why some say the law is an ass!

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