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Thread: France considers banning the burqa

  1. #131
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    Re: France considers banning the burqa

    Quote Originally Posted by B L Zeebub View Post
    Which law are you talking about worm, the Turkish law that was established by Atatürk, or the law that some are attempting to bring in in France?
    The Turkish law , of course..And it is so strange...there must be more to this..

    The French "law" is but a proposal, and may not go too far.

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    Re: France considers banning the burqa

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    What would you do if you knew that small girls are being forced by their fathers to cover up? You are trying to defend the free will of these women, but what if there is no free will involved? What if they refused to wear the burqa, the consequences would be a beating? Where is the free will in that?
    Children have "free will"? What planet are you living on?

    If parents believe it appropriate for their daughters to wear a burqa, that is the parents' right, and none have the right to challenge that (obvious exceptions such as in school, et cetera). Children are told to wear clothes they dislike all the time; there is no issue of free will in this.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    The French like other nations have looked at the situation have determined that something must be done to help women in that part of society to break away from a male dominated oppression. In Denmark we were forced to ban all marriage by people under 24 with someone from outside Denmark, just to some how curb all the forced marriages in the Turkish/Kurdish/Pakistani/Iraqi/Somalia community. I dont like the law one bit, nore would I like a law banning the burqa but I understand its reasoning and frankly some what support it.
    Reasoning? You call telling adults (24 is adult) whom they can marry just so that they won't somehow marry a child to be reasoning? You call being "forced" into this to be "reasoning?

    That's not reasoning, that's dictatorial hogwash. You're merely swapping what might be oppression for what is decidedly oppression.

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    Re: France considers banning the burqa

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Well actually its not illegal to wear headscarfs in public.
    Its illegal to wear them in government run institutions such as the police force, educational academies, etc. In public and on the street is perfectly acceptable, though they are not encouraged to do so.
    This makes a lot more sense.

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    Re: France considers banning the burqa

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Whether it is religious or cultural is an irrelevant distinction. What is relevant is that the burqa is part of the traditions of certain peoples. They should be respected.

    If a woman chose to be put into a chastity belt, she should be allowed that as well.

    People should be allowed to live their lives as they will, with minimal interference from government. Government certainly has no business telling anyone what they can and cannot wear.
    So you are saying that if the people of the Sub Sahara want to mutilate their girls genitalia because it is "part of their tradition" then it is fine and dandy?

    And yes it is comparable.
    PeteEU

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    Re: France considers banning the burqa

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Where did I say that? I am only stating the fact that wearing the burqa is placed on girls at a young age by male and female members of the family. It has nothing to do with religion but an attempt by a male dominated traditional society to control the female sex.

    What would you do if you knew that small girls are being forced by their fathers to cover up? You are trying to defend the free will of these women, but what if there is no free will involved? What if they refused to wear the burqa, the consequences would be a beating? Where is the free will in that?
    Where I come from small girls are forced to attend school for 8 hours a day by the Gov't. And you're complaining about La Familia pressure for a certain cultural identity.

    There are programs to remove children from hostile environments. Children reject their family's culture all the time; it's common.

    You should really push for banning consequential beatings, as that is the problem you have... not the burqas.

    The French like other nations have looked at the situation have determined that something must be done to help women in that part of society to break away from a male dominated oppression. In Denmark we were forced to ban all marriage by people under 24 with someone from outside Denmark, just to some how curb all the forced marriages in the Turkish/Kurdish/Pakistani/Iraqi/Somalia community. I dont like the law one bit, nore would I like a law banning the burqa but I understand its reasoning and frankly some what support it.
    There are more useful and less vulgar gestures toward the Islamic community than banning Burqas. It is not the cloth that the nations have problems with it is the symbolism of the cloth, instilled by an archaic tradition... An open war on the cultural symbolism of the Burqa is an automatic way to spawn a generation of angry Muslims (as it is oppression).

    Oppressive Fathers die. Lead the new generation into a culture integration; don't deny them their freedoms.
    "I do not underestimate the ability of fanatical groups of terrorists to kill and destroy, but they do not threaten the life of the nation. Whether we would survive Hitler hung in the balance, but there is no doubt that we shall survive al-Qa'ida." -- Lord Hoffmann

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    Re: France considers banning the burqa

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    So you are saying that if the people of the Sub Sahara want to mutilate their girls genitalia because it is "part of their tradition" then it is fine and dandy?

    And yes it is comparable.
    I don't know about France but this Burka wearing is not done by very many people it seems.

    Muslim groups insist that only a few dozen women in the Netherlands wear the burka, and that the ban is a distraction. The Muslims and Government Contact Body said: “Only a handful of Muslims actually wear burkas. Let us focus our energy on what we have in common. This is not a big problem.”
    Dutch unveil the toughest face in Europe with a ban on the burka - Times Online

    I find it more worrying where it laps over to the hijab and as far as that is concerned you will know that we in the UK see that very differently to female circumcision which is illegal.

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    Re: France considers banning the burqa

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Children have "free will"? What planet are you living on?

    If parents believe it appropriate for their daughters to wear a burqa, that is the parents' right, and none have the right to challenge that (obvious exceptions such as in school, et cetera). Children are told to wear clothes they dislike all the time; there is no issue of free will in this.
    So you believe that a bunch of parents that force their girls to wear a burqa will have the "free will" to say hell no when they reach 18 years old? Give me a break. That child is going to be brainwashed by religious dogma. Just look at the bible freaks in the US that exploit their children and brainwash them with bible crap that even makes normal priests puke. And in Nigeria, those girls that actually do stand up and say no.. get burned as witches..

    So next you are going to tell me that because it is a tradition in Nigeria to burn disobedient Christian girls at the stake, then it should be allowed?

    Reasoning? You call telling adults (24 is adult) whom they can marry just so that they won't somehow marry a child to be reasoning? You call being "forced" into this to be "reasoning?

    That's not reasoning, that's dictatorial hogwash. You're merely swapping what might be oppression for what is decidedly oppression.
    Forced marriages was and still is a real problem in Europe and even in the US. You might gloss over it because of your anal appreciation of "religious freedom", but it is there. Girls are forced to marry older men as soon as they legally can, and usually from the "home land".. Once married then the man and his closest family legally can immigrate to Europe. Now as I said; I dont like the law but I hate more the forced marriages and the torture these girls are put through.

    In the US, you have that paedophile sect in Texas that was busted a few years ago. They force their girls to marry older men, and even force the boys out so not to have "competition". Does the US do anything about it? Hell no, you allow their paedophilia to continue.

    At least we in Europe try to protect children and women from a male dominated society that has for centuries seen both as "property" and no better than cows and horses.
    PeteEU

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    Re: France considers banning the burqa

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    I don't know about France but this Burka wearing is not done by very many people it seems.
    It aint. Usualy from my experience it is older women who grew up in the oppression that wear them out of "they always have". Those young women who do wear it, are either forced to do so by their fathers and brothers or have been brainwashed by the same to do so. There is very little free will there.

    Dutch unveil the toughest face in Europe with a ban on the burka - Times Online

    I find it more worrying where it laps over to the hijab and as far as that is concerned you will know that we in the UK see that very differently to female circumcision which is illegal.
    Female circumcision is illegal in all European countries as is forced marriage. Problem is proving the latter. Usually it is only proven when the women ends up in the morgue after her husband/father/brother killed her because she wanted a divorce or to leave.
    PeteEU

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    Re: France considers banning the burqa

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    So you are saying that if the people of the Sub Sahara want to mutilate their girls genitalia because it is "part of their tradition" then it is fine and dandy?
    I am saying no such thing. France is not Sub Saharan Africa and the burqa is not part of female genital mutilation.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    And yes it is comparable.
    No it isn't. Clothing is not mutilation.
    Last edited by celticlord; 06-21-09 at 11:35 AM.

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    Re: France considers banning the burqa

    France does not, and never has had, the same commitment to individualism, pluralism, and free speech that the U.S. does.

    Personally, I find the idea of a burqa pretty freaking appalling. I find the idea of telling women that they can't wear them, though, even more appalling.

    This is NOT government's role.

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