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Thread: Woman fined $1.9 million for illegally downloading 24 songs

  1. #91
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    Re: Woman fined $1.9 million for illegally downloading 24 songs

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    That's a big fine. Hey, if it's too much for you, then don't steal.
    The concept of proportionate punishment to the crime, regardless of whatever catrch phrases you use, still matters.

    (Of course, saying she stole something when talking about legal repricussions, IMO, shows a lack of understanding on the issues)
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    Re: Woman fined $1.9 million for illegally downloading 24 songs

    Quote Originally Posted by Travelsonic View Post
    The concept of proportionate punishment to the crime, regardless of whatever catrch phrases you use, still matters.

    (Of course, saying she stole something when talking about legal repricussions, IMO, shows a lack of understanding on the issues)
    Now why would that stop ole Slippery from chiming in

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    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    How the hell did you just tie in a retroactive reparative measure with a proactive preventative measure. Not even close to being the same thing.

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    Re: Woman fined $1.9 million for illegally downloading 24 songs

    Quote Originally Posted by Travelsonic View Post
    The concept of proportionate punishment to the crime, regardless of whatever catrch phrases you use, still matters.

    (Of course, saying she stole something when talking about legal repricussions, IMO, shows a lack of understanding on the issues)
    "sharing" music in this fashion is theft. Yes, I think the punishment is disproportionate.

    A lack of understanding? Buddy, I should white out my name on my certificate from The National Academy of Recording Arts and Sciences showing I was a voting member... If I cared enough. I used to write music and sound effects for Computer games as well as being a working musician (currently). But please do keep assuming...

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    Re: Woman fined $1.9 million for illegally downloading 24 songs

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    "sharing" music in this fashion is theft. Yes, I think the punishment is disproportionate.

    A lack of understanding? Buddy, I should white out my name on my certificate from The National Academy of Recording Arts and Sciences showing I was a voting member... If I cared enough. I used to write music and sound effects for Computer games as well as being a working musician (currently). But please do keep assuming...
    theft requires teh loss of the original, not the copying of it
    that is what he is refering to

    Human Taxidermist - - now offering his services for all your loved ones
    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    How the hell did you just tie in a retroactive reparative measure with a proactive preventative measure. Not even close to being the same thing.

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    Re: Woman fined $1.9 million for illegally downloading 24 songs

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeJayH View Post
    theft requires teh loss of the original, not the copying of it
    that is what he is refering to
    In your opinion and apparently his. Both of you are wrong according to the law.

    If I make 5 tables by copying the first one and you steal one of the 4, I still have the original, but it's still theft.

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    Re: Woman fined $1.9 million for illegally downloading 24 songs

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    In your opinion and apparently his. Both of you are wrong according to the law.
    from criminal.findlaw.com:

    Theft/larceny is typically defined as the taking of almost anything of value without the consent of the owner, with the intent to permanently deprive him or her of the value of the property taken. Most states recognize degrees of theft, such as "grand" or "petty," which usually relate to the value of the property taken.

    For example, Dan goes to Victor's music store, puts two CDs in his pocket, and walks out the door. Dan can be charged with theft/larceny. Had Dan stolen Victor's car from the parking lot, Dan would likely be charged with grand theft/larceny.
    Dowling v. the United States (1985):
    (from caselaw.lp.findlaw.com)

    (a) The language of 2314 does not "plainly and unmistakably" cover such conduct. The phonorecords in question were not "stolen, converted or taken by fraud" for purposes of 2314. The section's language clearly contemplates a physical identity between the items unlawfully obtained and those eventually transported, and hence some prior physical taking of the subject goods. Since the statutorily defined property rights of a copyright holder have a character distinct from the possessory interest of the owner of simple "goods, wares, [or] merchandise," interference with copyright does not easily equate with theft, conversion, or fraud. The infringer of a copyright does not assume physical control over the copyright nor wholly deprive its owner of its use. Infringement implicates a more complex set of property interests than does run-of-the-mill theft, conversion, or fraud. Pp. 214-218.

    The Morpheus / Grokster trial:
    (from Notes From The Morpheus, Grokster Trial | Techdirt)

    "Let me say what I think your problem is. You can use these harsh terms, but you are dealing with something new, and the question is, does the statutory monopoly that Congress has given you reach out to that something new. And that's a very debatable question. You don't solve it by calling it 'theft.' You have to show why this court should extend a statutory monopoly to cover the new thing. That's your problem. Address that if you would. And curtail the use of abusive language."

    And in the U.K (just as more examples of legal differentiation, even internationally):
    The Theft Act:
    (from Theft Act 1968 (c. 60))

    A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it; and “thief” and “steal” shall be construed accordingly.
    You were saying? Your argument is looking very slippery (pun intended) if you ask me. Theft very much is recognized as requiring deprival of property, and separate from copyright infringement.
    Last edited by Travelsonic; 06-22-09 at 04:30 PM.
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    Re: Woman fined $1.9 million for illegally downloading 24 songs

    Quote Originally Posted by Travelsonic View Post
    from criminal.findlaw.com:



    Dowling v. the United States (1985):
    (from caselaw.lp.findlaw.com)




    The Morpheus / Grokster trial:
    (from Notes From The Morpheus, Grokster Trial | Techdirt)




    And in the U.K (just as more examples of legal differentiation, even internationally):
    The Theft Act:
    (from Theft Act 1968 (c. 60))



    You were saying? Your argument is looking very slippery (pun intended) if you ask me. Theft very much is recognized as requiring deprival of property, and separate from copyright infringement.
    I'm sorry to inform you that you are sadly mistaken. Let us simply look at your very first quote above:
    Theft/larceny is typically defined as the taking of almost anything of value without the consent of the owner, with the intent to permanently deprive him or her of the value of the property taken.
    I separated the two issues addressed in one sentence for clarity. The example which you made bold to make sure we didn't miss is one example out of many, not the only example. By stealing the music you are permanently depriving the owner of the value (revenue).

    As a musician, if I create a song and put it on the web or on any medium for people to PAY for it's use, then you may NOT use it without my permission. You get my permission by PAYING for it. I created it. Before I created it, it did not exist and therefore it and all replicas or copies belong to me unless I release some or all of MY rights.
    Last edited by Slippery Slope; 06-22-09 at 07:05 PM.

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    Re: Woman fined $1.9 million for illegally downloading 24 songs

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    In your opinion and apparently his. Both of you are wrong according to the law.

    If I make 5 tables by copying the first one and you steal one of the 4, I still have the original, but it's still theft.
    than why is it refered to as piracy instead of theft?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    How the hell did you just tie in a retroactive reparative measure with a proactive preventative measure. Not even close to being the same thing.

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    Re: Woman fined $1.9 million for illegally downloading 24 songs

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeJayH View Post
    than why is it refered to as piracy instead of theft?
    What-the-****-ever... it's against the ****ing law regardless.

  10. #100
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    Re: Woman fined $1.9 million for illegally downloading 24 songs

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    What-the-****-ever... it's against the ****ing law regardless.
    and i would call it semantics too but sure got you riled up

    Human Taxidermist - - now offering his services for all your loved ones
    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    How the hell did you just tie in a retroactive reparative measure with a proactive preventative measure. Not even close to being the same thing.

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