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Thread: Bill will ban 'white only' BNP.

  1. #51
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    Re: Bill will ban 'white only' BNP.

    Quote Originally Posted by earthworm View Post
    We live in a democracy, do we not ??
    If at least 75% vote for a prohibition of any hate/racist/criminal group in politics....then, so be it..
    The Blacks, IMO, are NOT racist...in a sense...as a minority should be allowed "extra space"....
    Then according to your logic, if 75% vote for slavery, then so be it.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Bill will ban 'white only' BNP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Actually, it is.



    And in a free society, those women would still be outside, because the freedom of association has no meaning unless it includes the freedom from association, too.



    Those rights do not exist. The job belongs to the employer, who, in a free society, chooses whoever he wants to fill the jobs, using whatever criteria he wants to.

    The employee has no right to a job, since a job is nothing more than a task someone is willing to pay someone else to perform rather than doing it himself.



    Why? Free societies do not chain their citizens.

    Any of them, until an actual crime is committed. Real crimes are crimes the involve violence, theft, fraud, and the like. Not hiring someone isn't a crime by any sensible use of the word.
    Clearly your laws and ways of doing things are different to ours.

    Discrimination chains people. I am sorry you do not see that.

  3. #53
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    Re: Bill will ban 'white only' BNP.

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    Clearly your laws and ways of doing things are different to ours.

    Discrimination chains people. I am sorry you do not see that.
    Thought control and overreaching government against the rights and liberties of the people chains people. Allowing dumb people to be dumb does not.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Bill will ban 'white only' BNP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Actually yes, it does.
    No, actually democracy is obligated to allow the people to form the parties of their choice.

    You could look the word up, you know.


    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Freedom is a relative term, of course there is a middle ground.
    No, if people can't form the political alliances they choose, they don't have political freedom and their nation isn't a democracy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    You have the freedom of movement, but you can't move through/into restricted areas.
    Yeah, it's hard for me to walk through walls, too, no matter how much freedom I have.

    The rights of the individual to own property supersed the right of another individual to wander at will.

    What's that got to do with the freedom to associate with others?

    Oh, that's right, nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    It has nothing to do with majority and minority.
    Yes, real democracies rapidly make slaves of the minorities.

    Fortunately, I don't live in a democracy and don't respect them. However, we're discussing a limited democracy in which the freedoms of the minority are protected by law from oppression by the majority.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Democracy can in fact prevent parties with extreme ideas that oppose democracy in a clear and obvious way from partaking in the elections.
    No.

    Democracies can have a higher law, like the US Constitution, the limits the ability of the majority to impose laws limiting the freedoms of the minorities, once those parties are in power, but there's no democratic basis for telling people who they can and cannot allow in their voluntary associations known as political parties.

    And it makes no difference if those people get elected, if the constitution prohibits them from making law that oppress the minorities.

    Put it another way, you can't eliminate oppression and intolerance by practicing oppression to demonstrate your intolerance of someone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Do you honestly believe that if Hitler came back to life and re-organized his National-Socialist party in Germany, and assuming it wins the elections, the state of Germany would just accept it with an open arms?Really?
    Really? Did I say that somewhere? Funny, I don't recall saying that.

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    Re: Bill will ban 'white only' BNP.

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    Clearly your laws and ways of doing things are different to ours.

    Discrimination chains people. I am sorry you do not see that.
    So you're opposed to freedom.

    Good for you.

    I'm a libertarian, I'm fully in support of all freedoms.

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    Re: Bill will ban 'white only' BNP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    To an extent yes but the law in UK has legislated against hate speech
    Yeah, I bet that makes George Orwell proud.

  7. #57
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    Re: Bill will ban 'white only' BNP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    No, actually democracy is obligated to allow the people to form the parties of their choice.

    You could look the word up, you know.
    Democracy is also obligated to protect the rights of its population, rights that would be abolished by parties such as the BNP.

    You could look the word up, you know.
    No, if people can't form the political alliances they choose, they don't have political freedom and their nation isn't a democracy.
    Even in democracy people have limited freedoms.
    Yeah, it's hard for me to walk through walls, too, no matter how much freedom I have.
    Your analogy lacks sense.
    The rights of the individual to own property supersed the right of another individual to wander at will.
    You're comparing between individual rights here, and you're right at what you're saying, but what will you say when the state declares an area a closed military zone?
    What's that got to do with the freedom to associate with others?

    Oh, that's right, nothing.
    I merely gave an example for why freedom is a relative term, I'm sorry that you were not able to realize it.
    Yes, real democracies rapidly make slaves of the minorities.
    Again, what does it has to do with the minorities/majorities?
    Fortunately, I don't live in a democracy and don't respect them.
    So there's no democracy in L.A, eh?
    No.

    Democracies can have a higher law, like the US Constitution, the limits the ability of the majority to impose laws limiting the freedoms of the minorities, once those parties are in power, but there's no democratic basis for telling people who they can and cannot allow in their voluntary associations known as political parties.

    And it makes no difference if those people get elected, if the constitution prohibits them from making law that oppress the minorities.
    That is true for the U.S and some other democracies, but there are many democracies that do not impose such "higher law".
    Really? Did I say that somewhere? Funny, I don't recall saying that.
    Seems like you lack the common human ability to assume and conclude from texts.
    But if you find that to be entertaining don't let it stop you.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

    Dante Alighieri

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    Re: Bill will ban 'white only' BNP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Democracy is also obligated to protect the rights of its population, rights that would be abolished by parties such as the BNP.
    People don't have a right to join a club when they don't meet the entrance requirements.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    You could look the word up, you know.
    What good would that do you, since you're the one lacking comprehension?

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Even in democracy people have limited freedoms.
    Only where the excercise of those freedoms harms others.

    Not hiring someone in that category, and guess what? Companies "don't hire" people all the time.

    They excercise discrimination in who they do hire.

    Discrimination is anothe word you can search for, it's right after "democracy", and before "fascist".


    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Your analogy lacks sense.

    You're comparing between individual rights here, and you're right at what you're saying, but what will you say when the state declares an area a closed military zone?
    The state owns that property, does it not?

    Did I not say the owner of property gets to make the decisions on who has access to it?

    So what's your problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    That is true for the U.S and some other democracies, but there are many democracies that do not impose such "higher law".
    I never liked Somalia much.

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    Re: Bill will ban 'white only' BNP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    So you're opposed to freedom.

    Good for you.

    I'm a libertarian, I'm fully in support of all freedoms.


    Hark at you. Sorry to give you the bad news. There is no way to support all freedoms.

    If you support the freedom of the murderer, you fail to support the freedom of the victim.

    All of us living in modern societies have to follow laws. That I am sorry is reality.

    If you take it just on discrimination.

    You either support the right of the racist to refuse the right of earning a living or having a roof over their head or you support the right of everyone to have equal rights based on their needs and abilities. The same can be said for any kind of discrimination based on the persons gender, sexual preference or religion.

    Anti discrimination laws came in so that everyone living in our society can have an equal freedom to go after what they want. When discrimination is no longer a problem it will not matter whether we have or do not have these laws.

    You are simply asking for the right to be discriminatory against others and you are calling that freedom not recognising it interferes with anothers freedom.

    However I believe the whole point of your posts to me was a bit of flame baiting.

  10. #60
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    Re: Bill will ban 'white only' BNP.

    Most forms of anti-discrimination laws (especially in the form of "hate crime" laws), are nothing more than various forms of thought control. Something I don't feel is proper domain of the government. You may be comfortable with the government telling people how to feel and think, but I don't. The crap spewed about people making a living and such is BS. That's not what's being talking about, and we're ok with certain amounts of that so long as it's based in the correct direction (affirmative action being a prime example of this). What's at heart is a private organizations freedom of speech, assembly, and association as related to political voice and dissidence. These are amongst the most sacred and valuable of all our rights and it is this that you wish to infringe upon. Making some heartfelt emotional plea for people to try to influence them; win them over. Discrimination is bad, blah blah blah. No duh, we figured that one out. But at the point in which you will seek the destruction of the ability of a group to exercise their rights then we're gonna have a problem, especially when political voice is concerned. You can't make people not hate, and you certainly can't tell people who they can and cannot associate with. But that's what you want to do in the end, and it's dangerous to allow government this sort of mobility against the rights and liberties of its People.

    You are also wrong in saying "Democracy is also obligated to protect the rights of its population". Democracy in and of itself is mob rule, it has no obligation other than to do what the majority of the people said to do. If it said no hate crimes, there can be no hate crimes. If it said slavery, then there is slavery. There's nothing innate to a democracy which chains it to the rights and liberty of the People. That's a Republic, a system built upon law and restriction of government action against the rights and liberties of the People. That restriction is also what allows Republics to be able to tolerate even racist political groups. First off, not much chance they will get elected. Second of, even in they are elected; they are prevented from certain acts and powers have been sufficiently divided. The Republic looks out for the rights and liberties of the individual and in fact uses these as the basis of all law. Democracy itself does not necessarily contain these features.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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