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Thread: Bill will ban 'white only' BNP.

  1. #101
    Educator Frodly's Avatar
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    Re: Bill will ban 'white only' BNP.

    I will address this point by point.


    Quote Originally Posted by wbreese91 View Post
    Agreed. Finally, a statement I can agree with. The parents DO need to do more. All I am saying is that the schools should provide an equal OPPORTUINITY for education. I know that the school isn't the entire problem, but most schools in the "hood" are old, and damaged. Most of them can't afford to have extracurricular activities that would keep the kids off the streets aside from basketball.

    That is a false statement. The reason inner city schools do not have extra-curricular activities, is not because they do not have the money for it. In succesful big cities like chicago and New York, schools actually spend a relatively high amount per student. The reason that there are not extra-curricular activities, is because public schools are liable if anyone is injured on school property after school. It is not a risk most inner city schools are willing to take, as they have a large number of high risk students.

    Quote Originally Posted by wbreese91 View Post
    I agree that the parents aren't putting enough stress on the kids and that the government can't replace good parents. The government can; however, invest in trying to provide facilities and hire faculty that interest the kids in education. And, I also agree that teachers unions are a major part of the problem here with their insistance on tenure and such. So what can the government do you ask?

    It would be awesome if simply funding schools better made a significant difference. Sadly it does not. Some poor inner city schools could double their funding, and the increase in results would be minimal. The only accurate predictor for academic achievement is the socio-economic status of a student and their family. If a kid comes from a family that has a lot of money, he will do significantly better than kids from poor families. That is on average of course, as obviously some poor kids excel and some rich kids fail. This fact is best illustrated by kids who are in scattered housing. Recently in chicago many people in government housing have been moved out of the inner city, and into the suburbs. The kids who were moved often went to heavily funded, successful suburban schools, it made very little to no difference when it came to academic achievement.

    Quote Originally Posted by wbreese91 View Post
    1. Elliminate Teachers' Unions
    2. National Standardized Graduation Tests, so that states can't cheat by making their tests easier in order to meet National standards.
    3. Give out vouchers so that parents can send their kids to better schools
    4. Eliminate Welfare for families with parents who are capable of work to eliminate the fall-back for kids who don't succeed.
    5. Launch a national campaign to promote education.
    There, not all of those suggestions will be to your liking I know. But I at least hope you can appreciate some of them.


    As far as number 1, that is a ridiculous idea. People consistently say teachers should be paid more. Yet all sorts of people want to get rid of the teachers union. If you eliminate the body ensuring teachers salaries, pensions, benefits, etc. Many people who are now going into teaching will not do so. I am currently in school getting my degree in secondary education. I have very good grades, and I could do almost whatever I want, but I want to teach. If the union was not their, I would not teach, because the compensation now is not great, but it is good, and the pension in the state of illinois is pretty great.

    2. National standards are almost always a bad idea. Educational issues should be dealt with on as local a level as possible. To have the same standards for a rich suburban school, and a poor inner city or rural school is not reasonable.

    3. Again, same as before. The only accurate predictor of academic achievement is socio-economic status. Private school achievement tends to be higher than the average public school, that is true, but that is linked to the fact that people who can afford private school, usually have more disposable income. If you compare a rich suburban public school, to a poor inner city private school, the rich public school will massively outperform the private school. If you put a rich private school against a rich public school, they will tend to perform about the same.


    4. As I have already pointed out, socio-economic status of students is the only accurate predictor of academic achievement, so the only real way to improve education would be to improve the welfare system.


    5. Same as 2. Involving the federal government in educational issues is almost never a good idea.


    Sorry for the extremely long response!!


    PS. Sorry for derailing the thread. I just looked and remembered this thread is about the BNP!
    Last edited by Frodly; 06-18-09 at 07:23 AM.
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  2. #102
    Advisor wbreese91's Avatar
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    Re: Bill will ban 'white only' BNP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frodly View Post
    I will address this point by point.
    I shall return the favor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frodly View Post
    That is a false statement. The reason inner city schools do not have extra-curricular activities, is not because they do not have the money for it. In succesful big cities like chicago and New York, schools actually spend a relatively high amount per student. The reason that there are not extra-curricular activities, is because public schools are liable if anyone is injured on school property after school. It is not a risk most inner city schools are willing to take, as they have a large number of high risk students.
    This may be true. I do know the complaint I have heard most often is a lack of funding. If this is true, then the government (locally in this case) needs to take steps to protect schools from such rediculous lawsuits. I firmly believe that extra-curricular activities could provide kids with a more constructive outlet for their energy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frodly View Post
    It would be awesome if simply funding schools better made a significant difference. Sadly it does not. Some poor inner city schools could double their funding, and the increase in results would be minimal. The only accurate predictor for academic achievement is the socio-economic status of a student and their family. If a kid comes from a family that has a lot of money, he will do significantly better than kids from poor families. That is on average of course, as obviously some poor kids excel and some rich kids fail. This fact is best illustrated by kids who are in scattered housing. Recently in chicago many people in government housing have been moved out of the inner city, and into the suburbs. The kids who were moved often went to heavily funded, successful suburban schools, it made very little to no difference when it came to academic achievement.
    Yes, but we need to find a way to break that trend. If we want to help inner city students achieve we need to find a way to: first, motivate the parents to encourage their students and second, motivate the students to achieve.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frodly View Post
    As far as number 1, that is a ridiculous idea. People consistently say teachers should be paid more. Yet all sorts of people want to get rid of the teachers union. If you eliminate the body ensuring teachers salaries, pensions, benefits, etc. Many people who are now going into teaching will not do so. I am currently in school getting my degree in secondary education. I have very good grades, and I could do almost whatever I want, but I want to teach. If the union was not their, I would not teach, because the compensation now is not great, but it is good, and the pension in the state of illinois is pretty great.
    Teachers unions have forced a rediculous tenure system on schools that does not allow them to fire underachieving teachers. Teachers unions constantly pursue benefits for teachers that school systems cannot afford. I am not advocating a complete lack of protection or a system of advocacy for teachers, but they, like airtraffic controllers, perform a vital civic function and should not be allowed to strike, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frodly View Post
    2. National standards are almost always a bad idea. Educational issues should be dealt with on as local a level as possible. To have the same standards for a rich suburban school, and a poor inner city or rural school is not reasonable.
    In this case, the tests to determine whether or not schools meet national standards needs to be created by the national government. Allowing the states to do it is like letting the students make a test in a classroom. The test would have to be slightly different depending on where it was administered. Yes, this might be difficult, but that does not mean it isn't worth doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frodly View Post
    3. Again, same as before. The only accurate predictor of academic achievement is socio-economic status. Private school achievement tends to be higher than the average public school, that is true, but that is linked to the fact that people who can afford private school, usually have more disposable income. If you compare a rich suburban public school, to a poor inner city private school, the rich public school will massively outperform the private school. If you put a rich private school against a rich public school, they will tend to perform about the same.
    Again, we cannot just say "Oh, they're poor and there is nothing we can do about it. They are going to fail for the most part, but it's not our problem..." We need to take action to ensure that every student has at least the same chance of success.


    Quote Originally Posted by Frodly View Post
    4. As I have already pointed out, socio-economic status of students is the only accurate predictor of academic achievement, so the only real way to improve education would be to improve the welfare system.
    The welfare system is part of the problem. If you got free money from the government for not doing anything, you wouldn't try to get an education either. The welfare system should take care of the disabled, not the lazy.


    Quote Originally Posted by Frodly View Post
    5. Same as 2. Involving the federal government in educational issues is almost never a good idea.
    No Child Left Behind has made some improvements. I agree though that the federal government should be involved as little as possible, but I think some involvement is neccesary. It should, however, be approached with the utmost caution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frodly View Post
    Sorry for the extremely long response!!
    No probem, I appreciate a debator who provides actual evidence and provides a challenge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frodly View Post
    PS. Sorry for derailing the thread. I just looked and remembered this thread is about the BNP!
    You aren't derailing the thread. We are debating the impact of education on the difference between the races, or if there is a difference between the races in the first place.
    Last edited by wbreese91; 06-18-09 at 01:59 PM.
    “Justitia suum cuique distribuit” Justice renders to every one his due

    - Cicero

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