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Thread: NYC officials duped into approving first gay marriage

  1. #51
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    Re: NYC officials duped into approving first gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by ARealConservative View Post
    I don't call myself a libertarian, I lean that way, but call myself a conservative.


    libertarianism is bad because just like Marxism, it ignores the human equation. For instance, when can a father start having sex with his daughter? 5? 9? 18? Never? A libertarian purist will come back with some lame ass stuff about when she can enter into contract - while ignoring that the monopoly of state power determines when a person is able to enter into contracts. oops - you just might be a statist afterall.
    Before you get into an argument with yourself Socrates, try this. A libertarian would be fine with this if both of the people are rational. In courts, it's easy to see that the burden of proof on proving that the child is rational is on the parent. If he cannot prove that the child is rational, then he cannot engage in this because she does not know what is best for her.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: NYC officials duped into approving first gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Before you get into an argument with yourself Socrates, try this. A libertarian would be fine with this if both of the people are rational. In courts, it's easy to see that the burden of proof on proving that the child is rational is on the parent. If he cannot prove that the child is rational, then he cannot engage in this because she does not know what is best for her.
    courts? You know who runs the courts? I'll give you a hint - it is contained in the word Statist.

  3. #53
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    Re: NYC officials duped into approving first gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by ARealConservative View Post
    courts? You know who runs the courts? I'll give you a hint - it is contained in the word Statist.
    The role of the state is to enforce contracts and provide protection from agression. There are plenty of libertarians, all want either a minarchist state or anarchy. I'm a minarchist, but best defined by classical liberalism.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: NYC officials duped into approving first gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    The role of the state is to enforce contracts and provide protection from agression. There are plenty of libertarians, all want either a minarchist state or anarchy. I'm a minarchist, but best defined by classical liberalism.
    the role of government is to protect individual liberty. That is the piece minarchists have correct.

    Your failure is in the application of government towards that end.

    Government protects rights - the mob protects the government.

    When 99% of us want to shut down a business that engages in prostitution but are told we cant because that is not the role of the state, then what happens? We overthrow the government and establish the one we want.

    It is a fine balance between protecting rights, and giving the mob what they want. A balance that libertarian purists can't grasp as they throw around overused terms like statist.

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    Re: NYC officials duped into approving first gay marriage

    Giving the mob what they want? That's not freedom. If you don't want the prostitution business then don't go there. Freedom of association is a wonderful thing.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: NYC officials duped into approving first gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Giving the mob what they want? That's not freedom. If you don't want the prostitution business then don't go there. Freedom of association is a wonderful thing.
    like I said - purists can't grasp the nuances. Freedom means squat when nobody is interested in protecting it.

    I'll go back to the 5 year old example. Why is he not free to carry a gun while walking the streets in his underoos?

    How about the guy that has been convicted of armed robbery?

    In both cases, we are stripping people of their freedom.....and I'm quite comfortable in doing so. Give me a statist flag to drape myself in, I'll sleep just fine as a libertarian leaning statist.

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    Re: NYC officials duped into approving first gay marriage

    You have two arguments going now: the pragmatism of intervention and mob rule. Let's deal with one at a time.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: NYC officials duped into approving first gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    You have two arguments going now: the pragmatism of intervention and mob rule. Let's deal with one at a time.
    you agreed with mob rule a minute ago.

    The courts decide when a husband can boink a daughter. The courts operate in a manner agreeable to the mob. They elect those that nominate judges. They serve as the peers in jury trials, etc. etc. When our very government is under attack, only the mob can properly defend it.

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    Re: NYC officials duped into approving first gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by ARealConservative View Post
    you agreed with mob rule a minute ago.

    The courts decide when a husband can boink a daughter. The courts operate in a manner agreeable to the mob. They elect those that nominate judges. They serve as the peers in jury trials, etc. etc. When our very government is under attack, only the mob can properly defend it.
    I did not agree with mob rule. It's you who cannot grasp nuances.

    The courts are only accountable to the law. You can counter back that the majority sets the law, but not quite. Because we have principles that cannot be violated, even when mob rule decides it wants something, and it violates that principle, it is not law. For instance, if we try to draft a law that only blacks will be drafted, it will immediately be shot down by the courts. The mob wanted it, but it will not get it.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: NYC officials duped into approving first gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    I did not agree with mob rule. It's you who cannot grasp nuances.

    The courts are only accountable to the law. You can counter back that the majority sets the law, but not quite. Because we have principles that cannot be violated, even when mob rule decides it wants something, and it violates that principle, it is not law. For instance, if we try to draft a law that only blacks will be drafted, it will immediately be shot down by the courts. The mob wanted it, but it will not get it.
    Damn right I will counter back with reality. the law is an extension of the mob. When the mob wanted to allow slavery, we had slavery. When they wanted to treat women as property, they were property. If the courts don't give the mob what they want, the mob revolts.

    Government does not exist in a vacuum - it has to give the people what they want. It will only be able to protect the rights that the people want protected. It's the sad truth and is why libertarianism is a joke - it fails to take the human equation into account just as Marxism does.

    We are all statists. Accept it and find an ideology that works with human nature. I personally suggest the platform espoused by Ron Paul (that one's for Jallman).

    But more importantly, drop the statist shtick. You sound like a high school kid when you throw that overused buzz word around.

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