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Riots erupt in Tehran over 'stolen' election

We did it on our own, with the population split almost 50/50 pro and con against the revolution, for 3 years. Wait. Watch. Give them a chance. Perhaps they can do this without firing a single bullet.
Not because we didn't want their support. Because they were unsure about their ability to maintain a war against England due to their economic issues. We sent Benjamin Franklin to France in 1776 seeking their direct support.

Legitimate according to whom? If we get in the middle of this, we will strip their victory of legitimacy.
I disagree, not if they ask us for it.
THIS IS THEIR FIGHT. We have to let them fight it. Hopefully, by peaceful means.
These riots are not the Velvet Revolution. Riots are not peaceful. Peaceful protests are peaceful. Burning cars, throwing stones, throwing molotov cocktails, beating policemen...these are riots and they are not peaceful.
If, at some point, the leaders of this peaceful velvet revolution ask for help, I think we should be standing ready. BUT THEY AREN'T ASKING FOR OUR HELP RIGHT NOW.
And that is what I'm suggesting. We need to be willing and ready to arm them to fight for their country when it escalates to that point. And you don't know that they are not asking us. We have had covert connections in Iran for some time. We don't know what they are asking for. Twitter and Youtube do not constitute the entirety of the communications coming from within Iran. I assure you that if they are asking for material support this will not be advertised by the opposition on the internet. It will be done covertly through the intelligence community.

I don't know if I can be more clear on this, but the U.S. can't assist these people against their will. When I say we need to send them weapons, obviously there needs to be a desire to receive them. I think some people are being deliberately argumentative and simply taking the most literal interpretation of my words in order to criticize my position on this matter. "Well you didn't say 'if they want them' you just said we need to arm them, and you weren't specific so your idea is bad." Logically it stands to reason that there would be a receptive party on the other end of our offer of material support.
 
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We sent Benjamin Franklin to France in 1776 seeking their direct support.

I don't know if I can be more clear on this, but the U.S. can't assist these people against their will. When I say we need to send them weapons, obviously there needs to be a desire to receive them. I think some people are being deliberately argumentative and simply taking the most literal interpretation of my words in order to criticize my position on this matter. "Well you didn't say 'if they want them' you just said we need to arm them, and you weren't specific so your idea is bad." Logically it stands to reason that there would be a receptive party on the other end of our offer of material support.

If and when that occurs, I will be fully behind supporting the Iranian people in removing this totalitarian regime.
 
In an ironic twist....Debate Politics is freezing every time I try to access this, and only this, thread. They've gotten to DP! ;)
 
In the spirit of Iranian freedom, let's join hands and sing kumbaya.

I don't see the Mullahs relinquishing one iota of power unless made to so by the barrel of a gun. They're killing people over there, their 2nd revolution may actually have begun.
 
In an ironic twist....Debate Politics is freezing every time I try to access this, and only this, thread. They've gotten to DP! ;)

It's cause this forum is a threat to tyrants!
 
I don't see the Mullahs relinquishing one iota of power unless made to so by the barrel of a gun. They're killing people over there, their 2nd revolution may actually have begun.

I agree. My hope is that the barrel they are staring down belongs to a gun their own military is wielding. Further, I hope that the soldier wielding that gun isn't attempting to set up a junta, but supporter of the opposition and in favor of setting up a true Iranian democracy.
 
I don't see the Mullahs relinquishing one iota of power unless made to so by the barrel of a gun. They're killing people over there, their 2nd revolution may actually have begun.

The mullahs themselves are split between first and second generations of the 1979 revolution.

They are far from unified.

Iran’s Power Struggle – tehranbureau

Also, the reformists are also co-opting the faith in their struggle. Today's protests are religiously-based:

Crowd masses for rally, Mousavi calls day of mourning | International | Reuters
 
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From everything I read the population has outgrown the idea of the Guardian Council and strict theocratic rule. Change is in the air.

If this succeeds, and I pray to God above that it does, I am going to be very interested in seeing how it affects the situations between Israel and Palestine/Syria/Lebanon.

This could have a major ripple effect for many reasons.
 
The mullahs themselves are split between first and second generations of the 1979 revolution.

They are far from unified.

Iran’s Power Struggle – tehranbureau

Also, the reformists are also co-opting the faith in their struggle. Today's protests are religiously-based:

Crowd masses for rally, Mousavi calls day of mourning | International | Reuters

I don't fear moderate or modernist Islam, I'm glad they are continuing to embrace their religion. So long as it is not an extremist militant strain there is no issue. I think it helps provide a set of moral guidelines for many practitioners (I know this is disputed and I'll not go past this post with it so as not to derail).
 
For Lerxst:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8D7SYJVzqg]YouTube - An Open Letter From Iranians TO The World-Spread it World Wide[/ame]
 
As I said before, we should not have any illusions about the people’s movement as it currently exists. The current movement is limited and tied to Mousavi. The current movement is not yet class-conscious. The current movement has not yet drawn towards itself the mass of the entire people. The current movement is not yet lead by the advanced and class-conscious section of the working-class. These are all the real problems with the current movement. These are the problems we should be addressing, and these are the problems that will decide the fate of the movement.


There is no doubt that the movement is progressing and that it is by itself dealing with these problems. Friday, before any such movement existed, there were hardly any chants that were anti-government. Saturday, the first mass demonstrations chanted “Death to the dictator!” but equally they chanted for Mousavi. Sunday the latter sentiment was toned down a bit, while the former increased due to Mousavi’s call for restraint [2]. Monday, the reverse happened due to Mousavi’s renewed calls for a re-election. Tuesday again Mousavi’s side grew given his increasing opposition. What can we deduce from this? Mousavi is clearly being pulled to the opposition side under pressure of the people’s movement. He’s bending but soon enough he will break. There is only so far you can bend as a supporter of the Iranian state when calls are being made for its overthrowing.

See the full article
 
As I said before, we should not have any illusions about the people’s movement as it currently exists. The current movement is limited and tied to Mousavi. The current movement is not yet class-conscious. The current movement has not yet drawn towards itself the mass of the entire people. The current movement is not yet lead by the advanced and class-conscious section of the working-class. These are all the real problems with the current movement. These are the problems we should be addressing, and these are the problems that will decide the fate of the movement.

Your opinions here are in conflict with the vast majority of reports coming from Iran. First, this is about DEMOCRATIC REFORMS, not Mousavi as a person, and even Mousavi himself has acknowledged this. Secondly, those participating range from garbage collectors to university professors and healthcare workers.

I want to clearly and explicitly state that YOU personally have a communist agenda for Iran that may or may not parallel what the Iranians want for themselves.
 
Your opinions here are in conflict with the vast majority of reports coming from Iran.

Which opinions?

First, this is about DEMOCRATIC REFORMS, not Mousavi as a person

We have never claimed that it is about Mousavi as a person.

Secondly, those participating range from garbage collectors to university professors and healthcare workers.

We have never denied this, and agree with this statement entirely. See the post I have made here:

Me said:
This is a lie. The WaPo article never said anything about who is in the streets in support of Mousavi, as the WaPo article is referring to a survey it took before the election was held. Many others are in the streets in support of Mousavi and/or against the dictatorship in general, and it includes people across the board, from workers to students to middle class liberals and beyond.
 
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The current movement is limited and tied to Mousavi.

Wrong. The current movement is tied to democratic reforms.

The current movement is not yet class-conscious. The current movement has not yet drawn towards itself the mass of the entire people.

Wrong. The current movement is drawing from all classes, and from both rural and urban areas.
 
Wrong. The current movement is tied to democratic reforms.

One does not exclude the other. The current movement is limited to democratic reforms in terms of demands, and Mousavi is widely seen as a prominent member of that movement. This is why we are still seeing mass support for him.

Wrong. The current movement is drawing from all classes, and from both rural and urban areas.

See my edit. You are again mistaken in understanding what is being stated.
 
I for one want Democracy for Iran, not communism. However, if the people of Iran choose communism, that is their choice. However I don't think they will trade one dictatorial rule for another.
 
Updates:

Confirmed:
Iranian protesters are trying to maintain peaceful demonstrations, but, they are being infiltrated by gov't thugs who continually shout derogatory things, try to stir up violence. Remarkably, the protesters aren't falling for it and are maintaining their calm.

Iran-State Police Force comfirms plain-clothes & black-masked militia are from Palestine & Lebanon, they have diff. orders.

The soccer team removed their green wristbands during the second game. Not to "un protest" or anything, but to show Ahmidinejad, they would decide when and where.

Unconfirmed:
List of those killed (pretty reliable source): Revolution Martyrs Revolution in Iran

Reports of police/guard wearing green headbands. Other reports claiming some have defected. These have been circulating since late last night, but so far are unconfirmed.

News Agencies:
From BBC, really good story, summing up: BBC NEWS | Middle East | Fresh rally takes place in Tehran

Wow, un-confirmed, report of leak of documents proving the election was a fraud. This has been a rumor since saturday or sunday. This is the first picture. It was
Election theft memo from Iran Interior Ministry (Authenticity NOT VERIFIED) #iranelection on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
I have no idea if this is an authentic document.

If it is, it is a June 13, 2009 (Persian calendar 23 Khordad 1388)
memo from the office of Iran's Interior Ministry to Supreme Leader Ali
Khamenei.

The memo informs Khamenei that the interior ministry announced a
victory by Ahmadinejad in accordance with Khamenei's wishes. The memo
says announcing an Ahmadinejad win is in the best interests of the
nation.

The chart that follows informs Khamenei of the vote's "real" results.

It says 42 million votes were cast with
with Mousavi getting 19,075,623 votes, Mehdi Karroubi getting
13,387,104 votes, Ahmadinejad finishing a distant third with 5,698,417
votes, and Mohsen Rezaee getting 3,754,218.

(Persian-to-English translation by my father. He read the memo off my phone, so please forgive minor typos).
This from the BBC RE the memo:
6.15pm:
Iranian filmmakers Marjane Satrapi and Mohsen Makhmalbaf just held a press conference in Brussels to say they have a document proving election fraud, Adnkronos news agency reports.

The document, seen here, says that Mousavi won the election with 19m votes, with cleric Mehdi Karroubi coming in second and Ahmadinejad coming in third. Satrapi and Makhmalbaf said the document had come from the Iranian electoral commission, and is dated June 13, the day after the election.

Adnkronos notes it cannot confirm the document's authenticity.

From AP, harsh words about US:
Iran accuses US of interference in election feud
By ALI AKBAR DAREINI – 40 minutes ago

TEHRAN, Iran (AP) — Iran has accused the United States of "intolerable" meddling in its internal affairs, alleging for the first time that Washington has fueled a bitter post-election dispute.

A state television channel in Iran says the government summoned the Swiss ambassador, who represents U.S. interests in Iran, to complain about American interference. The two countries broke off diplomatic relations after the 1979 Islamic Revolution. An English-language state-run channel quoted the government as calling Western interference "intolerable."

Well, there it is the first charge. Next will be the CIA charge......
 
Reports of police/guard wearing green headbands. Other reports claiming some have defected. These have been circulating since late last night, but so far are unconfirmed.
This is the crucial question. Revolutions and rebellions prevail when the military and police (or at least portions thereof) break with the ruling government to join the rebels. In every uprising in history, the event that tips the balance to the rebels is large-scale defections within the military and police establishments.

Rumors are frustratingly tantalizing, but anyone tracking events in Iran should pay especial attention to anything that confirm defections from the military and police to Mousavi's camp. If and when this happens en masse, Khameni's days are numbered. If this does not happen, Khameni is likely to prevail in the end.
 
This is the crucial question. Revolutions and rebellions prevail when the military and police (or at least portions thereof) break with the ruling government to join the rebels. In every uprising in history, the event that tips the balance to the rebels is large-scale defections within the military and police establishments.

Rumors are frustratingly tantalizing, but anyone tracking events in Iran should pay especial attention to anything that confirm defections from the military and police to Mousavi's camp. If and when this happens en masse, Khameni's days are numbered. If this does not happen, Khameni is likely to prevail in the end.

Believe me, I know how critical this is. I'm searching for any sign of confirmation in vain. But, because it's important, and because there has been confirmation of some of the IIRG being arrested for supporting the protestors, I posted it, with the *unconfirmed* caveat. The moment I have confirmation, I'll post it.
 
Believe me, I know how critical this is. I'm searching for any sign of confirmation in vain. But, because it's important, and because there has been confirmation of some of the IIRG being arrested for supporting the protestors, I posted it, with the *unconfirmed* caveat. The moment I have confirmation, I'll post it.
Understood, and appreciated. I made mention of it to call everyone's attention to it, so that more than a few sets of eyes are looking for that confirmation.
 
Understood, and appreciated. I made mention of it to call everyone's attention to it, so that more than a few sets of eyes are looking for that confirmation.

It's getting more and more difficult to confirm events. Foreign and domestic journalists are under arrest orders to stay in their offices, no photos, no interviews, no being out in the streets. The only journalists defying that order is a couple of BBC guys, bless their bravery and keep them safe! In addition, the tweets coming from inside Iran are sparse and there are increasing numbers of Iranian gov't mis-information tweets to wade through.
 
Very much so. I've said on this forum many, many times there was a strong dissent movement in Iran, that the people of that country aren't happy. I've always suggested we support them and promote regime change from within. I've been thanked numerous times and people have agreed with me from both sides.

Now we have a catalyst for regime change in Iran, and all of a sudden it seems that the idea of supporting that movement with real tools that they can use to not only defend themselves with but to actually take down the regime is taboo.

It all seems so very romantic, so awe inspiring seeing the Iranian people in the streets. And I agree, I am overjoyed. I had hoped for something like this for years. But you don't just let an opportunity like this slip away. The only way the Iranian government will stop this movement is to brutally suppress it by force of arms. If that happens I wonder how many people here will be saying "we should have done something!" How many will criticize the administration for standing idly by while Iranian forces massacre protesters.

It's all so ridiculous that people will go into convulsions over Iran threatening to obliterate Israel and accuse them of seeking nuclear weapons while calling for direct military action to protect the world from this threat. Of course when someone suggests arming the opposition so that they can do internally what we all seem to want done I'm "not thinking" or I'm wrong.

I expected more of the do nothing lets watch stuff some are saying then basic agreement that the USA should be doing ALOT more then saying "we're not meddling" which is the weak willed wordage Obama is using.
 
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