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Riots erupt in Tehran over 'stolen' election

If this goes past the 1999/2003 occurances to actual revolt then the "protestors" will be slaughtered and the "world" will do nothing.

What are the "world's" options?
 
Supporting them .
 
Did I see that right? They knocked that police guy off his bike and stuff, and then escorted him to a spot where they could treat his wounds?

Here's another:

i28_19359991.jpg

Supporters of Mir Hossein Mousavi try to calm down fellow demonstrators as they rescue a bloodied riot policeman (center) who was beaten during a protest in Valiasr Street in Tehran on June 13, 2009. (BEHROUZ MEHRI/AFP/Getty Images)

i29_19360635.jpg

A backer of Mir Hossein Mousavi helps evacuate an injured riot-police officer during riots in Tehran on June 13, 2009. (OLIVIER LABAN-MATTEI/AFP/Getty Images)

Source
 
...
Support them how?


BY backing their efforts verbally and clearly as France and much of the EU has. Or like Represetatrive Pence has (http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...ntroduces-resolution-iran.html#post1058086567)

..not like the Obama USA has.


If it goes past this by supporting them with weaponry intelligence etc.

IOW supporting them as in supporting them for real in the real world instead of waxing poetic about idealistic BS on Twitter. Or worrying more about a photo op BSathon.




That you guys even have to ask tells me your just looking for a way to say "Sitting on our asses is mighty fine" in nifty ways.
 
BY backing their efforts verbally and clearly as France and much of the EU has. Or like Represetatrive Pence has (http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...ntroduces-resolution-iran.html#post1058086567)

..not like the Obama USA has.

It is not prudent to call a regime illegitimate if it may survive and we may need to negotiate with it. If the protesters gain the upper hand, Obama can THEN take sides.

American interference in Iranian politics is NOT desirable to anyone involved. The establishment would use it as a pretext to crack down on the protesters, the protesters would resent American involvement, and the United States would be more likely to have to negotiate with a hardline establishment. But that's exactly what you want.

Triad said:
If it goes past this by supporting them with weaponry intelligence etc.

Who is "them"? Last I checked, the protesters have neither a military nor an intelligence bureau. If there is a revolution, it almost certainly will not be in the form of a civil war. There is no reason to provide "intelligence" to an angry mob which probably knows more about the situation than our government does. That's just retarded.

Triad said:
IOW supporting them as in supporting them for real in the real world instead of waxing poetic about idealistic BS on Twitter. Or worrying more about a photo op BSathon.

That you guys even have to ask tells me your just looking for a way to say "Sitting on our asses is mighty fine" in nifty ways.

The fact that you respond to simple questions with such hostility indicates that you know your views are idealistic and indefensible.
 
Could we please keep the actions of the American government out of this thread? There are a few threads open for that already, and I don't want to see this thread cluttered with it.
 
Here's another:

i28_19359991.jpg

Supporters of Mir Hossein Mousavi try to calm down fellow demonstrators as they rescue a bloodied riot policeman (center) who was beaten during a protest in Valiasr Street in Tehran on June 13, 2009. (BEHROUZ MEHRI/AFP/Getty Images)

i29_19360635.jpg

A backer of Mir Hossein Mousavi helps evacuate an injured riot-police officer during riots in Tehran on June 13, 2009. (OLIVIER LABAN-MATTEI/AFP/Getty Images)

Source

See, that sort of stuff is touching, not being sarcastic.

They can knock the guy down, and some of them (unfortunately not the ones who caused the bleeding wounds) can find it in their hearts to take their "enemy" and give them aid and treatment. Very humane.
 
Iran Updates (VIDEO): Live-Blogging The Uprising

Reports of arrests last night and today. They've arrested human rights attorneys and personnel.

There's also reports of making the dead disappear and reporting vastly undercounted numbes of both dead and wounded.

4:36 PM ET -- Then they came for the human rights lawyers. Via reader Colin.

Security officials posing as clients entered the Tehran offices of one of Iran's leading human rights lawyers today and arrested him, Nobel Peace Prize winner Shirin Ebadi just told NPR's Davar Iran Ardalan.

That lawyer, Abdolfattah Soltani, spoke with Davar just yesterday -- telling her that the Iranian government should recount all the votes in last Friday's disputed presidential election, in which President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was declared the winner by a 2-1 margin.

"Once they were inside they immediately confiscated his computer and other documents and they arrested Mr. Soltani," Ebadi said in today's interview. "As far as we know, they did not have an arrest warrant."


Ebadi later called to tell NPR that several other human rights activists had been rounded up as well.

Update: Via reader Golnaz, Ebadi also called for a new election in an interview with Radio Free Europe:

I believe that a recount of the votes under the current conditions won't solve anything. A new election must be held and this time it should be under the monitoring of International organizations so that all participants would be contented that the votes that come out of the ballot boxes are the real votes of the people.

6:03 PM ET -- "What I have witnessed." A powerful note from a female medical student in Iran, translated from Farsi by a trusty reader.

Hello,

It's painful to watch what's happening.

I don't want anything to do with what has been said this far, as I neither have the strength nor the resilience to face all these unfathomable events.

I only want to speak about what I have witnessed. I am a medical student. There was chaos last night at the trauma section in one of our main hospitals. Although by decree, all riot-related injuries were supposed to be sent to military hospitals, all other hospitals were filled to the rim. Last night, nine people died at our hospital and another 28 had gunshot wounds. All hospital employees were crying till dawn. They (government) removed the dead bodies on back of trucks, before we were even able to get their names or other information. What can you even say to the people who don't even respect the dead. No one was allowed to speak to the wounded or get any information from them. This morning the faculty and the students protested by gathering at the lobby of the hospital where they were confronted by plain cloths anti-riot militia, who in turn closed off the hospital and imprisoned the staff. The extent of injuries are so grave, that despite being one of the most staffed emergency rooms, they've asked everyone to stay and help--I'm sure it will even be worst tonight.

What can anyone say in face of all these atrocities? What can you say to the family of the 13 year old boy who died from gunshots and whose dead body then disappeared?

This issue is not about cheating(election) anymore. This is not about stealing votes anymore. The issue is about a vast injustice inflected on the people. They've put a baton in the hand of every 13-14 year old to smash the faces of "the bunches who are less than dirt" (government is calling the people who are uprising dried-up torn and weeds) .

This is what sickens me from dealing with these issues. And from those who shut their eyes and close their ears and claim the riots are in opposition of the government and presidency!! No! The people's complaint is against the egregious injustices committed against the people.

The systemic "cleansing" of the voice of opposition withn Iran while Ahmedinejad is out of the country. SOP for suppresive regimes. I've been listening to the english translations of the State sponsored radio.... there's growing "noise" about the US being involved with the protestors. They haven't been so blatant as to name the US, yet. But, they are naming the "West" and using voice clips and comments by Limbaugh, O'Reilly...... Nothing about Pence, yet.
 
That we don't know for sure. When I was in Iran in 1987, I met more secular people than religious. I can't really tell because I never lived there, but that's the impression I got and that's what my Iranian friends tell me.

I'm not saying they are fundamentalists, but they are probably more attached to their religion than many Americans.
 
See, that sort of stuff is touching, not being sarcastic.

They can knock the guy down, and some of them (unfortunately not the ones who caused the bleeding wounds) can find it in their hearts to take their "enemy" and give them aid and treatment. Very humane.

And that kind of treatment is very good for them strategically. It humanizes both the riot police and rioters. I think it could lead to police defections. The GC is already ordering the arrest of numerous military leaders they believe are at risk of siding with the protesters.

Good for the Iranians.
 
This whole situation is incredible -- how things have changed.

10-15 years ago, we'd never all this information, this fast.

20 years ago, events like this went unreported. Sadly, they probably still do in parts of the world.

It's been an incredible story to follow. My heart goes out to the citizens. Let's hope that, as much as possible, they stay out of harms way.
 
Could we please keep the actions of the American government out of this thread? There are a few threads open for that already, and I don't want to see this thread cluttered with it.

Would you agree that discussing what America should do at this juncture is fair game?
 
It is my belief we have been supporting the underground movement for some time. I believe we should step up our support of this new, overt movement and do all we can to help them keep their momentum. I'm talking the funneling of arms and information to the opposition. Assault rifles, sub machine guns, handguns, grenades, and anti-tank weapons. We have massive stockpiles of them in Iraq. Interrupt state run radio and initiate Radio Free Iran.
 
Some practical ways individuals can help the protesters.


Cyberwar guide for Iran elections - Boing Boing

Cyberwar guide for Iran elections
Posted by Cory Doctorow, June 16, 2009 3:25 AM | permalink

Yishay sez, "The road to hell is paved with the best intentions (including mine). Learn how to actually help the protesters and not the gov't in Iran."
The purpose of this guide is to help you participate constructively in the Iranian election protests through Twitter.
1. Do NOT publicise proxy IP's over twitter, and especially not using the #iranelection hashtag. Security forces are monitoring this hashtag, and the moment they identify a proxy IP they will block it in Iran. If you are creating new proxies for the Iranian bloggers, DM them to @stopAhmadi or @iran09 and they will distributed them discretely to bloggers in Iran.

2. Hashtags, the only two legitimate hashtags being used by bloggers in Iran are #iranelection and #gr88, other hashtag ideas run the risk of diluting the conversation.

3. Keep you bull$hit filter up! Security forces are now setting up twitter accounts to spread disinformation by posing as Iranian protesters. Please don't retweet impetuosly, try to confirm information with reliable sources before retweeting. The legitimate sources are not hard to find and follow.

4. Help cover the bloggers: change your twitter settings so that your location is TEHRAN and your time zone is GMT +3.30. Security forces are hunting for bloggers using location and timezone searches. If we all become 'Iranians' it becomes much harder to find them.

5. Don't blow their cover! If you discover a genuine source, please don't publicise their name or location on a website. These bloggers are in REAL danger. Spread the word discretely through your own networks but don't signpost them to the security forces. People are dying there, for real, please keep that in mind..
 
It is my belief we have been supporting the underground movement for some time. I believe we should step up our support of this new, overt movement and do all we can to help them keep their momentum. I'm talking the funneling of arms and information to the opposition. Assault rifles, sub machine guns, handguns, grenades, and anti-tank weapons. We have massive stockpiles of them in Iraq. Interrupt state run radio and initiate Radio Free Iran.

At present, VOA is blocked in Iran. Our only transmitter is in Qatar. We need to establish a transmitter in Iraq.
 
It is my belief we have been supporting the underground movement for some time. I believe we should step up our support of this new, overt movement and do all we can to help them keep their momentum. I'm talking the funneling of arms and information to the opposition. Assault rifles, sub machine guns, handguns, grenades, and anti-tank weapons. We have massive stockpiles of them in Iraq. Interrupt state run radio and initiate Radio Free Iran.

No no no no nooooooo

That would be the absolute worst thing that we could possibly do. The Iranian regime is looking for a pretext to clobber the protesters, but it can't easily manufacture one without many members of the police and military refusing to obey and/or defecting to join the protesters.

Furthermore, if the Iranians decide to topple their government it won't be through a prolonged civil war. It will be through some kind of revolution. Whether it's peaceful like Czechoslovakia or bloody like Romania remains to be seen...but in neither case would it do any good to funnel arms to them.

For one thing, there has been little indication that the protesters would even welcome American involvement. For another thing, we have no way of getting massive stockpiles of weapons to protesters. For another thing, we don't even know who they are. For another thing, if we gave them to any "big name" protest figures to distribute, they would immediately be arrested. For another thing, the timeline of a potential revolution is much shorter than the timeline of our weapons supply chain. By the time the weapons got there, the government would already be overthrown or the protest would be crushed. And finally, if Iran's government DOES manage to survive (which is still more likely than not) we would be much better off if we had not just funded an armed insurrection against it.
 
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It is my belief we have been supporting the underground movement for some time. I believe we should step up our support of this new, overt movement and do all we can to help them keep their momentum. I'm talking the funneling of arms and information to the opposition. Assault rifles, sub machine guns, handguns, grenades, and anti-tank weapons. We have massive stockpiles of them in Iraq. Interrupt state run radio and initiate Radio Free Iran.

Talk about getting caught up in the excitement and carried away.:shock:
 
The Iranians will let us know what they need. Right now they just need us to be vigilent and get the word out.



I keep seeing this, does anyone else know if it's true?

Liveleak.com instead of Youtube to upload videos...Youtube is deleting
 
Nice Analysis by Juan Cole:


Tuesday, June 16, 2009
Dueling Demonstrations in Tehran

Borzou Daragahi reports from Tehran that supporters of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad came out in the tens of thousands to chant "Death to America," "Death to Israel," and "Khamenei is our Leader." This rally, called for 4 pm, was meant to upstage one scheduled at 5 pm by supporters of Mir-Hosain Mousavi. The latter crowd instead staged a small, quiet march on Vali Asr Street in the north of the city.

Grand Ayatollah Hosain Montazeri, once thought likely to be Khomeini's successor, called for 3 days of mourning for the 12 demonstrators killed on Monday. Montazeri broke with the regime, rejecting an authoritarian interpretation of the 'guardianship of the jurisprudent' or mandatory clerical rule, and is under house arrest in Qom.

On the other hand, Ali Larijani, the speaker of the Iranian parliament who quit as Ahmadinejad's negotiator on nuclear issues because of the president's confrontational style, nevertheless rallied to his side on Tuesday.

I'd say that there are three factions: the hard liners, the pragmatic conservatives, and the reformists. Larijani is a hard liner, so what he said is not surprising. If the pragmatic conservatives continue to back Mousavi, however, that is a real challenge to the regime.
 
It is not prudent to call a regime illegitimate if it may survive and we may need to negotiate with it. If the protesters gain the upper hand, Obama can THEN take sides

American interference in Iranian politics is NOT desirable to anyone involved. The establishment would use it as a pretext to crack down on the protesters, the protesters would resent American involvement, and the United States would be more likely to have to negotiate with a hardline establishment. But that's exactly what you want.

According to you and Obama
..to me the USA isn't a nefarious evil nation which is the basis for your ability to declare how Iranians would react.

Who is "them"? Last I checked, the protesters have neither a military nor an intelligence bureau. If there is a revolution, it almost certainly will not be in the form of a civil war. There is no reason to provide "intelligence" to an angry mob which probably knows more about the situation than our government does. That's just retarded.

"If it goes beyond this point"--
The "protestors" better have support with guns or they will be slaughtered.
If they get that support we should support it.
They wont' if it occurs. Obama will do nothing and you will excuse his doing nothing.
Next time you try to imply I'm retarded you better respond to what I actually said.


The fact that you respond to simple questions with such hostility indicates that you know your views are idealistic and indefensible.

Is this the part where I act like I don't know whats behind talked about?
Nah I'm not that pathetic.

If I'm asked "how long does Iran get to negotiate" I say March 2010
...you say you can't read.
 
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It is my belief we have been supporting the underground movement for some time. I believe we should step up our support of this new, overt movement and do all we can to help them keep their momentum. I'm talking the funneling of arms and information to the opposition. Assault rifles, sub machine guns, handguns, grenades, and anti-tank weapons. We have massive stockpiles of them in Iraq. Interrupt state run radio and initiate Radio Free Iran.



If it gets to the point that they actually turn into a revolutionary movement then thats exactly what we should.

I;d be confident we would do that if anyone else was President.
 
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