They didn't agree to back the American Revolution until after Saratoga. They wanted to see if the uprising had stamina.
It is a prudent course to take. No nation should intrude on what is and must remain a matter of Iranian domestic politics. As we would demand respect for our sovereignty, we must show respect for Iranian sovereignty, even though we may desire to deal with the dictatorship of a Mousavi rather than the dictatorship of an Ahamenijad.
We can and should affirm our own political principles in this--the primacy of free and fair elections, the right of free assembly and the right of free speech, the requirement that people enjoy the capacity to petition the government for redress of grievances. Such is our heritage, and such within our heritage can serve as a guide, a beacon, and even an inspiration to the protesters in Iran. For this reason alone we should, in this time more so than any other time, declare our principles loudly, clearly, and often.
Last edited by celticlord; 06-20-09 at 07:39 PM.
Such words didn't help much when Washington was getting his ass handed to him in 1776, losing New York and most of New Jersey.
When Burgoyne lost his army to Gates at Saratoga in October, 1777, that's when the French decided backing the Americans was the winning play.
When the protesters show they can beat back the mullahs, then it's time for the US to back the protesters explicitly. Until they can do that, the US should stay on the sidelines with the rest of the world.
How are they going to do that against fighters, strike helicopters, and tanks with rocks and molotov cocktails?When the protesters show they can beat back the mullahs, then it's time for the US to back the protesters explicitly. Until they can do that, the US should stay on the sidelines with the rest of the world.
Which is when you learn the sucky thing about body armor: kevlar stops rounds but doesn't do a damn thing against rocks and molotov cocktails.
Provided the mullah's idea of riot suppression is the same as ours. Let's see...shooting rioters with AK-47's from the rooftops, hacking them with axes, and stabbing them with daggers. I did a substantial amount of riot control training in the military police...never saw those as options. The regime in Tehran has already signaled they will not constrain themselves to western philosophies regarding how to handle rioters. These crowds are reaching sizes that traditional riot control would be very ineffective in dealing with. There is no way possible to control a crowd of 100,000 or more angry citizens armed with melee weapons and firebombs. The only thing you can do is to let them do their thing and wait for them to get tired or go in and start killing them where they stand. Many of these crowds are larger than can be possibly contained by any form or traditional riot control and more than likely have some degree of organization.Fighters, strike helicopters, and tanks are pretty useless in an urban environment, especially when the challenge is a domestic one (the general idea of putting down a riot is to demolish the rioters without demolishing the buildings). Riot suppression requires the government putting bodies with guns up against bodies with rocks and molotov cocktails.
Tanks and helicopters could be not only effective but completely devastating in urban environments. We have proven that already in Iraq. When allowed to fire indiscriminately into large crowds in the streets the body count would be sickening. If the regime plans on crushing these crowds they will need more than tear gas and water cannons.
So far I haven't heard anything about troops. Military is the big player nobody is thinking much about atm but it will decide where Iran goes if the protests go to revolution.
Mousavi or whatever has seemingly accepted he's a major player but even he has no control now.
So now supposedly he has said to continue even if he is arrested or killed.
Supposedly these protests are not all central to Tehran(in two other major urban areas maybe) but the extent of it outside is unknown.
Supreme leader says its over AhmanutO is my man.
SO the protestors need to decide what are they protesting ...seems today they put in an effort against the Supreme Leader..BUT lets be honest they need to make clear they want to remove the regime and do it..or frankly go home and hope they can ride out the following years of arrests/etc.
Source: guardian.co.ukIran TV reports 10 killed in Saturday protests
Staff and agencies
Sunday 21 June 2009
Ten people were killed and more than 100 injured in Tehran during yesterday's protests, state-run television said today, as Iran was braced for the possibility of further post-election confrontations.
State television said the deaths happened during clashes between police and "terrorist groups". Reuters reported that two gas stations were set on fire, citing Iran's English-language Press TV, which described the culprits as "rioters". Thousands of protesters clashed with black-clad police wielding guns, truncheons, tear gas and water cannons. Amateur video showed the demonstrators pelting police with stones and shouting: "Death to the dictator!"
Yesterday's clashes along one of Tehran's main avenues – as described by witnesses – had far fewer demonstrators than recent mass rallies for Mousavi. But they marked another blow to authorities who sought to intimidate protesters with harsh warnings and lines of black-clad police three deep in places. The rallies left questions about Mousavi's ability to hold together his protest movement. He bewildered many followers by not directly replying to the ultimatum issued Friday by Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, Iran's most powerful figure, to call off the demonstrations or risk being held responsible for "bloodshed, violence and rioting".
Amateur video showed clashes erupting in the southern city of Shiraz yesterday and witnesses reported street violence in Isfahan, south of Tehran.
This is make-it or break-it time. The protests seem to be losing density and momentum.
אשכנזי היהודי • Белый Россию