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Thread: Riots erupt in Tehran over 'stolen' election

  1. #261
    Why so serious?

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    Re: Riots erupt in Tehran over 'stolen' election

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    Yes, but Iranians are still predominantly religious people, and they do not suffer a true separation of church and state like we do. Whoever their pick is will be a Muslim first and foremost, and in Islam religion and politics are tied at the hip.
    I understand that.
    "I believe in a Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of all that exists, but not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and actions of human beings."

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    Re: Riots erupt in Tehran over 'stolen' election

    This transcends Mousavi at this point. The 7 demands go far beyond anything Mousavi dreamed of asking for.

    So, this isn't any more about Mousavi than it is about Obama.

    it's about the Iranian people saying, "we want a real election. we want rights. We want more."

    For those who are just starting to pay attention, Michael Totten has done a good job of covering the issues:

    Commentary Michael J. Totten

    Here is also a good place to start (forget the stupid partisan references to Obama, and bear in mind that this guy understands Iran very well):

    Faster, Please! So How’s it Going in Iran?
    These demands were obviously put forward by more radical elements within the movement, but it is hard to gauge how much sympathy/support these elements have within the movement as a whole. However, with the way that things have been going today, I have a feeling that this is going to turn very radical very quickly.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

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    Re: Riots erupt in Tehran over 'stolen' election

    It's funny...I don't consider these radical demands.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Tehran over 'stolen' election

    It's funny...I don't consider these radical demands.
    In terms of beliefs, neither do I, and neither do most Iranians. However, in terms of actually expressing those beliefs in public, they are very radical and a step in the right direction.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

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    Re: Riots erupt in Tehran over 'stolen' election

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    In terms of beliefs, neither do I, and neither do most Iranians. However, in terms of actually expressing those beliefs in public, they are very radical and a step in the right direction.
    Radical for Iran, but very much in line with most western democracies.

  6. #266
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    Re: Riots erupt in Tehran over 'stolen' election

    Quote Originally Posted by Tashah View Post
    Khayembii is correct. Mousavi is more polished than Ahmadinejad, but he is part and parcel of the extended dictatorship.
    And Alexander Dubcek was a member of the Communist Party prior to the Velvet Revolution...so what's your point?

    The fact is that A) Mousavi is now a symbol of the reform movement, and B) his policies would represent a huge step in the right direction in terms of democratic reform and relations with the West. Of course he isn't a radical...but you guys are forgetting that if he WAS a radical, he never would have been allowed to run for president in the first place! All-or-nothing approaches to democracy are counterproductive. If the Iranian regime collapses in the next couple weeks, it will be because of people who are "part and parcel of the extended dictatorship" such as Mousavi, Rafsanjani, and Khatami.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 06-16-09 at 05:51 PM.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Tehran over 'stolen' election

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    And Alexander Dubcek was a member of the Communist Party prior to the Velvet Revolution...so what's your point?

    The fact is that A) Mousavi is now a symbol of the reform movement, and B) his policies would represent a huge step in the right direction in terms of democratic reform and relations with the West. Of course he isn't a radical...but you guys are forgetting that if he WAS a radical, he never would have been allowed to run for president in the first place! All-or-nothing approaches to dictatorships are counterproductive. If the Iranian regime collapses in the next couple weeks, it will be because of people who are "part and parcel of the extended dictatorship" such as Mousavi, Rafsanjani, and Khatami.
    Excellent post. Thanks for breaking it down so well.

    It also will require the participation of reformist mullahs from within Iran's religious hierarchy.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Tehran over 'stolen' election

    The fact is that A) Mousavi is now a symbol of the reform movement, and B) his policies would represent a huge step in the right direction in terms of democratic reform and relations with the West. Of course he isn't a radical...but you guys are forgetting that if he WAS a radical, he never would have been allowed to run for president in the first place! All-or-nothing approaches to dictatorships are counterproductive. If the Iranian regime collapses in the next couple weeks, it will be because of people who are "part and parcel of the extended dictatorship" such as Mousavi, Rafsanjani, and Khatami.
    If the dictatorship collapses, then Mousavi, Rafsanjani and Khatami will collapse with it.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

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    Re: Riots erupt in Tehran over 'stolen' election

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    If the dictatorship collapses, then Mousavi, Rafsanjani and Khatami will collapse with it.
    Not necessarily. The 7 demands lay out a process by which order could be maintained.

    Don't let your wishful thinking get in the way.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Tehran over 'stolen' election

    Not necessarily. The 7 demands lay out a process by which order could be maintained.
    The 7 demands are not demands that will be implemented by those in power. If the movement does radicalize to a point where they become revolutionary, they will have moved past those demands.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

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