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Thread: Riots erupt in Tehran over 'stolen' election

  1. #251
    Why so serious?

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    Re: Riots erupt in Tehran over 'stolen' election

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    So who else is there? There has to be opposition candidates that the people are behind who stand for true change. Everything I've read on Mousavi is that he stands for reform, woman's rights, freedom of information, etc. If this is all just lip service then that is fine, but is this opinion or does he have a track record to counter his proclaimed position? I honestly don't know much about this man.

    One thing is for certain, somebody needs to be stood up rather quickly in order to take advantage of this opportunity on behalf of the Iranian people.
    If this is a real revolution, the choices can't be between the two sides of the same coin. As long as the religious leaders are pulling the strings, it really doesn't matter who the puppet at the other end is.
    "I believe in a Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of all that exists, but not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and actions of human beings."

    --Albert Einstein, 1929

  2. #252
    Every day I'm hustlin'..
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    Re: Riots erupt in Tehran over 'stolen' election

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I don't follow Iranian politics, so am pretty ignorant. Right now I am just mostly concerned for the poor young people in Iran.
    I did some research on it a year or so ago when I was attempting to school myself up the matter. People were claiming that Iran was a "democracy" and that Ahmajenidad (sp) was elected he was "democratically elected." There is a lot of information out there, but once you really read about Iranian elections you will find that they aren't fair or representative of the will of the people at all.
    *insert profound statement here*

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    Re: Riots erupt in Tehran over 'stolen' election

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    So you all are saying that the people of Iran had a choice between evil, and evil? Grossly oversimplified, but that is about what you guys are saying?
    Yes.


    The man in charge is neither of them..the man in charge is the Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei. Neither of these people would be allowed to run if he didn't say ok.
    The entire Iranian political structure is set up so that the Ayatollah dictates and the arms of the government make sure the Ayatollah dictates according to their Islamic beliefs.

    Its a Theocratic Dictatorship.

  4. #254
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    Khayembii Communique's Avatar
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    Re: Riots erupt in Tehran over 'stolen' election

    Well I agree with you, but the last thing we want is to eject a theocracy and replace it with a military junta. There has to be someone the Iranian people want in there. They can't simply be leaderless.
    Without some form of organization or leadership this movement is going to be spontaneous, uncoordinated, and prone to failure. However, we cannot determine at this time what that form of organization will take or what leadership will emerge in the coming days/weeks. The reason that I say your question is unanswerable at this time is for that very reason; we have not seen this movement crystallize into an organized, efficient movement with a distinct leadership.

    Right now the movement is in its infancy, and the people are becoming radicalized. If this movement does continue and does become revolutionary, we will see it take on a more definite form, and have more definite goals, and out of this maturing we will see leaders arise. This is how revolutions always start in their infancy; they start out as reactive forces, but as the movement matures those participating become radicalized and we see it evolve from a reactive force into a proactive force. We see the demands go from very specific individual demands (such as the recount of an election result) to broader, more profound demands (such as the removal of the Ayatollah). Once this movement matures further we will have a better picture of its general direction, its possible impact and its future leaders. But we (as in, the people outside of Iran) must wait until the movement develops further before we can start such an analysis.

    I don't follow Iranian politics, so am pretty ignorant. Right now I am just mostly concerned for the poor young people in Iran.
    This image pretty much sums up how the Iranian electoral system works:



    It seems confusing, but if you follow it closely you'll realize that everything comes back to the Supreme Leader and the Guardian Council.
    Last edited by Khayembii Communique; 06-16-09 at 05:29 PM.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

  5. #255
    wʜɪтe яussɪaи Tashah's Avatar
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    Re: Riots erupt in Tehran over 'stolen' election

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    So you all are saying that the people of Iran had a choice between evil, and evil? Grossly oversimplified, but that is about what you guys are saying?
    I can't speak for Khayembii, but Mousavi is a bit more flexible. He would probably effect some changes, but these would basically be only cosmetic in nature and nuance.

    אשכנזי היהודי Белый Россию

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    Liberal Fascist For Life!


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    Re: Riots erupt in Tehran over 'stolen' election

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    I did some research on it a year or so ago when I was attempting to school myself up the matter. People were claiming that Iran was a "democracy" and that Ahmajenidad (sp) was elected he was "democratically elected." There is a lot of information out there, but once you really read about Iranian elections you will find that they aren't fair or representative of the will of the people at all.
    So this is a political game, with the innocent paying the price.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Tehran over 'stolen' election

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon View Post
    If this is a real revolution, the choices can't be between the two sides of the same coin. As long as the religious leaders are pulling the strings, it really doesn't matter who the puppet at the other end is.
    Yes, but Iranians are still predominantly religious people, and they do not suffer a true separation of church and state like we do. Whoever their pick is will be a Muslim first and foremost, and in Islam religion and politics are tied at the hip.
    *insert profound statement here*

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    Re: Riots erupt in Tehran over 'stolen' election

    This transcends Mousavi at this point. The 7 demands go far beyond anything Mousavi dreamed of asking for.

    So, this isn't any more about Mousavi than it is about Obama.

    it's about the Iranian people saying, "we want a real election. we want rights. We want more."

    For those who are just starting to pay attention, Michael Totten has done a good job of covering the issues:

    Commentary Michael J. Totten

    Here is also a good place to start (forget the stupid partisan references to Obama, and bear in mind that this guy understands Iran very well):

    Faster, Please! So How’s it Going in Iran?

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    Re: Riots erupt in Tehran over 'stolen' election

    The Seven Demands:

    Demonstrators in Iran distributed seven demands in print yesterday.

    1. Dismissal of Khamenei for not being a fair leader
    2. Dismissal of Ahmadinejad for his illegal acts
    3. Temporary appointment of Ayatollah Montazeri as the Supreme Leader
    4. Recognition of Mousavi as the President
    5. Forming the Cabinet by Mousavi to prepare for revising the Constitution
    6. unconditional and immediate release of all political prisoners
    7. Dissolution of all organs of repression, public or secret
    By the way, several hundred thousand copies of this were disseminated.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Tehran over 'stolen' election

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    Yes, but Iranians are still predominantly religious people, and they do not suffer a true separation of church and state like we do. Whoever their pick is will be a Muslim first and foremost, and in Islam religion and politics are tied at the hip.
    But there are muslims, and there are MUSLIMS. There are MANY moderate muslims in Iran, and always have been. Perham, who posts here, is one. His mother is heavily involved in women's rights issues in Iran.

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