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Obama declares that it's time to fix health care

celticlord said:
So your solution is to move everyone to the "government system", which even in your standard is less desirable than private insurance?

What do you accomplish but making everyone equally miserable?
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There is no "government system" suggested, only an alternative that will support the existing system. If you like the health care you have, no one will try to change it. What's the problem?
 
WI Crippler said:
What would benefit President Obama's healthcare reform agenda, is if he could prove his ideas would work, by fixing Medicare/Medicaid issues first.
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I agree.

Getting rid of of the Medicare Prescription Drug, Improvement and Modernization Act of 2003 (MMA) and the Medicare Advantage plans that funnel public funds directly to private insurance and drug companies would be a big step in the right direction.
 
WillRockwell said:
There is no "government system" suggested, only an alternative that will support the existing system. If you like the health care you have, no one will try to change it. What's the problem?
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Stealing my tax dollars to pay for someone else's medical problems.

The total and utter lack of Constitutional authority for the Federal Government to be doing ANYTHING remotely like what's being suggested.

The fact that once they got that camel's nose under the tent, and the government plan starts to fail (inevitable), the they will drag the camel's whole body inside, which is, of course, the real plan. (No, we ain't stupid out here in the sticks)

The fact that politicians and Democrats in particular are liars.

The fact that I'm still getting two tax bills from the county for one boat is perfect evidence that government run health care system is going to be a disaster.

King Drew Medical Center in Los Angeles, with the highest mortality rates in the county, is another example.

Lots of reason I and everyone else should oppose nationalized medicine.

Ain't a single good reason for it.
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
Since too much government broke health care, why are people expectantly awaiting even more government to fix it?

The alternative is less government, of course.

Not to mention the fact that The Messiah is a sudden convert to the Pay-As-You-Go notion of government, and he's planning on nationalizing 14% of a 15T dollar economy in one swoop, which means The Messiah will have to raise 2.1T dollars in taxes the year he does it.
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How in your opinion did Government break health care?

Scarecrow Akhbar said:
My healthcare plan works just fine, so clearly nothing's broken that matters to me.

That's all that counts.
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I'm sorry Scarecrow Akhbar, but you seem to be a little at odds with ......

well you.

First you blame Gov't for the reason health care is broken.

Then you claim it's not broken at all. :doh
 
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Triad said:
Works better then Socialized medicine under the liar Obama.


Alternative?..get rid of Obama and get a REAL President.
Until then Leave it Alone. Its not broke.
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Wow....I don't think I've seen as much Denial in one post in the history of this site.
 
celticlord said:
How do you see health care in the US as "not working"?
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Hey sorry I was at work trying to post and keep up between actually doing my job.

But to further answer your question,

-the U.S. ranks around 29th in the world in infant mortality rates.

-The U.S. ranks around 41st in life expectancy

- The U.S. health care system ranks around 37th according to W.H.O.

-The U.S. spends the highest percentage of their GDP on health care costs of any country in the world according to WHO

Do I need to provide links, or are you aware of these rankings?

This in addition to what I posted earlier are why I say our current health care system is broken.
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
Oh, sure! Private health care will always be available for goonion leaders, the Kennedy's, and the Messiah, but not for the people being taxed up the wazoo to pay for it's nationalization.
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You do realize that Kennedy and Obama, along with all members of Congress, the Senate etc. have Gov't provided health care right?

Scarecrow Akhbar said:
I mean, the first thing that national health care will do is mandate colonoscopies for everyone, just to make sure all the people are aware of what's really happening to them under The Messiah, and to make sure there's no cash hidden up there.
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So your irrational fear of being forced to get a colonoscopy is your reason for not wanting a better health care plan?
 
Shep Dawg said:
Thank you for your well thought out and insightful response. This will do what exactly to reform healthcare?
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There is nothing to reform or fix with American health care. We have the best health care in the world already.
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
Stealing my tax dollars to pay for someone else's medical problems.

The total and utter lack of Constitutional authority for the Federal Government to be doing ANYTHING remotely like what's being suggested.

The fact that once they got that camel's nose under the tent, and the government plan starts to fail (inevitable), the they will drag the camel's whole body inside, which is, of course, the real plan. (No, we ain't stupid out here in the sticks)

The fact that politicians and Democrats in particular are liars.

The fact that I'm still getting two tax bills from the county for one boat is perfect evidence that government run health care system is going to be a disaster.

King Drew Medical Center in Los Angeles, with the highest mortality rates in the county, is another example.

Lots of reason I and everyone else should oppose nationalized medicine.

Ain't a single good reason for it.
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Your dollars are already being stolen by the health care industry, and that is a very fat camel that is not only in the tent, it is eating the tent. Americans pay more for health care, and get less from it, than anyone in the world, yet people like you defend to the death your right to be robbed. If you cut your hand and had to go to the emergency room to get stitches, first they would ask how you were going to pay for the treatment, then they would make you wait, then they would sew you up. And then my friend, you would get a bill for thousands of dollars, for a job I could probably do myself with a needle and thread. Compare this to, oh, Canada for instance, where an emergency room visit doesn't cost you a dime, and nobody asks how you're going to pay for it.
I pay over $1000 a month for health care for a family of three. I am being robbed. I welcome change.
 
Don't Tase Me Bro said:
There is nothing to reform or fix with American health care. We have the best health care in the world already.
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Uhmmm....No we don't. More like 37th, but if you can provide a link to your claim, I would be happy to look at it.
 
Shep Dawg said:
-the U.S. ranks around 29th in the world in infant mortality rates.
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That's because we count every birth, dead or living. A lot of other nations don't count a birth if it is so many weeks premature or not a specific length so if the baby dies it doesn't count against their infant mortality rate. Infant mortality rates are not calculated the same universally so that stat is pretty much meaningless.

The U.S. ranks around 41st in life expectancy
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Which has jack to do with our health care. It has to do with Americans being fat, lazy slobs who don't eat right, don't exercise, and work considerably more hours and deal with more stress than our European counterparts. This has to do with lifestyle, not the quality of health care. We have best health care in the world which is why people flock here from all over the planet to get treated and not to countries like Britain and France. Got cancer? Your best chances of survival are right here in the U.S. The differences in breast cancer survival rates between here and countries with socialized medicine is staggering.


The U.S. health care system ranks around 37th according to W.H.O.
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You know how the WHO weights those rankings? 25% of a nation's score is "Financial Fairness" which has nothing to do with the quality of health care. I'm not saying our cost of health care couldn't stand to come down a bit, but you can mostly blame the government for why it's so high. Plus, when you got the best you're going to pay for it. 25% is "Health Level." Again, I already explained why Americans have so many health problems. We don't take care of ourselves and don't lead healthy lifestyles. We work more and deal with more stress. 25% is "Health Distribution" and since we don't have a universal single payer system that counts against us.

The W.H.O report is a manipulation of numbers from top to bottom and they have their own agenda. Like I said, there's a reason why people come here from all over the world to get their illnesses treated. Why are they all flocking to the country with the "37th" best health care in the world? Think about that.

The U.S. spends the highest percentage of their GDP on health care costs of any country in the world according to WHO
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That's because of Medicare and Medicaid and SCHIP and all of the state programs and every one else who gets these cadillac health insurance policies from their employers that cover every little cut and bruise you get. There are no market forces to drive the cost down because virtually nobody is paying the true cost. The government is or their insurance company is. What the hell do you care if your monthly prescription costs $100 if you are only paying a $5 copay? And if you want to know who to blame for people being so reliant on employer based health insurance, that would be FDR.

Have you actually ever read the W.H.O report thoroughly?
 
BO is going to fix health care like he fixed the economy. By screwing the middle class.
 
Don't Tase Me Bro said:
That's because we count every birth, dead or living. A lot of other nations don't count a birth if it is so many weeks premature or not a specific length so if the baby dies it doesn't count against their infant mortality rate. Infant mortality rates are not calculated the same universally so that stat is pretty much meaningless.
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Do you have anything to support your argument? Where does the U.S. rank according to you? Which countries report these items differently to the WHO?



Don't Tase Me Bro said:
Which has jack to do with our health care. It has to do with Americans being fat, lazy slobs who don't eat right, don't exercise, and work considerably more hours and deal with more stress than our European counterparts. This has to do with lifestyle, not the quality of health care. We have best health care in the world which is why people flock here from all over the planet to get treated and not to countries like Britain and France. Got cancer? Your best chances of survival are right here in the U.S. The differences in breast cancer survival rates between here and countries with socialized medicine is staggering.
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Links? And exactly what do you define as "staggering"? What percentage difference qualifies as staggering? Are you taking into account all the other variables?





Don't Tase Me Bro said:
You know how the WHO weights those rankings? 25% of a nation's score is "Financial Fairness" which has nothing to do with the quality of health care. I'm not saying our cost of health care couldn't stand to come down a bit, but you can mostly blame the government for why it's so high. Plus, when you got the best you're going to pay for it. 25% is "Health Level." Again, I already explained why Americans have so many health problems. We don't take care of ourselves and don't lead healthy lifestyles. We work more and deal with more stress. 25% is "Health Distribution" and since we don't have a universal single payer system that counts against us.
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What is you formula?


Don't Tase Me Bro said:
The W.H.O report is a manipulation of numbers from top to bottom and they have their own agenda. Like I said, there's a reason why people come here from all over the world to get their illnesses treated. Why are they all flocking to the country with the "37th" best health care in the world? Think about that.
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I believe our medical care is the best in the world, if you can afford it. The problem is that too many Americans cannot afford it, or even a reasonable facsimile thereof. That's health care, slightly different from medical care.



Don't Tase Me Bro said:
That's because of Medicare and Medicaid and SCHIP and all of the state programs and every one else who gets these cadillac health insurance policies from their employers that cover every little cut and bruise you get. There are no market forces to drive the cost down because virtually nobody is paying the true cost. The government is or their insurance company is. What the hell do you care if your monthly prescription costs $100 if you are only paying a $5 copay? And if you want to know who to blame for people being so reliant on employer based health insurance, that would be FDR.
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I'm the employer paying close to $15 a month in health insurance premiums for my employees to be able to afford to go to the doctor.





Don't Tase Me Bro said:
Have you actually ever read the W.H.O report thoroughly?
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No. Have you? Again, please show some data to support your claims. I'm not saying you're wrong, anythings possible. But at this point I'm inclined to go with the opinion of the W.H.O. over your opinion. No offense.
 
disneydude said:
Wow....I don't think I've seen as much Denial in one post in the history of this site.
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That is impossible...you post.

I have no doubt whatsoever you where bashing Bush for doing anything akin to what you are now patting Obama on the butt for.
 
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DamnYankee said:
BO is going to fix health care like he fixed the economy. By screwing the middle class.
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Please provide an example of how the administration is "screwing the middle class". I suspect you are simply mouthing rightwing lies....again.
 
WillRockwell said:
There is no "government system" suggested, only an alternative that will support the existing system. If you like the health care you have, no one will try to change it. What's the problem?
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That is completely false. The effect the government system we will have will undercut the private insurance agencies and eventually put them out of business, eventually forcing everyone into the government system. This is why the AMA has just come out in opposition to the Democrats' plan.
 
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Don't Tase Me Bro said:
That is completely false. The effect the government system we will have will undercut the private insurance agencies and eventually put them out of business, eventually forcing everyone into the government system. This is why the AMA has just come out in opposition to the Democrats' plan.
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This is not true, just mouthing of the excuses the pharmaceutical industry is spinning so they won't lose market share. Sure, private insurers will lose business, that is the whole freaking point. Since when is the continued wealth of private medical insurers more important than affordable health care?
 
WillRockwell said:
Please provide an example of how the administration is "screwing the middle class". I suspect you are simply mouthing rightwing lies....again.
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Inflation definitely screws the middle class since the value of their savings will crumble.
 
Shep Dawg said:
Do you have anything to support your argument? Where does the U.S. rank according to you? Which countries report these items differently to the WHO?
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Of course I can support my argument. I don't offer opinions on subjects that I am ignorant on.

First, it's shaky ground to compare U.S. infant mortality with reports from other countries. The United States counts all births as live if they show any sign of life, regardless of prematurity or size. This includes what many other countries report as stillbirths. In Austria and Germany, fetal weight must be at least 500 grams (1 pound) to count as a live birth; in other parts of Europe, such as Switzerland, the fetus must be at least 30 centimeters (12 inches) long. In Belgium and France, births at less than 26 weeks of pregnancy are registered as lifeless. And some countries don't reliably register babies who die within the first 24 hours of birth. Thus, the United States is sure to report higher infant mortality rates. For this very reason, the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, which collects the European numbers, warns of head-to-head comparisons by country.

Infant mortality in developed countries is not about healthy babies dying of treatable conditions as in the past. Most of the infants we lose today are born critically ill, and 40 percent die within the first day of life. The major causes are low birth weight and prematurity, and congenital malformations. As Nicholas Eberstadt, a scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, points out, Norway, which has one of the lowest infant mortality rates, shows no better infant survival than the United States when you factor in weight at birth.

U.S. News & World Report
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Links? And exactly what do you define as "staggering"? What percentage difference qualifies as staggering? Are you taking into account all the other variables?
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Here you go

One of the reports compares the statistics from Europe with those from the United States and shows that for most solid tumors, survival rates were significantly higher in US patients than in European patients. This analysis, headed by Arduino Verdecchia, PhD, from the National Center for Epidemiology, Health Surveillance, and Promotion, in Rome, Italy, was based on the most recent data available. It involved about 6.7 million patients from 21 countries, who were diagnosed with cancer between 2000 and 2002.

The age-adjusted 5-year survival rates for all cancers combined was 47.3% for men and 55.8% for women, which is significantly lower than the estimates of 66.3% for men and 62.9% for women from the US Surveillance, Epidemiology, and End Results (SEER) program ( P < .001).

Survival was significantly higher in the United States for all solid tumors, except testicular, stomach, and soft-tissue cancer, the authors report. The greatest differences were seen in the major cancer sites: colon and rectum (56.2% in Europe vs 65.5% in the United States), breast (79.0% vs 90.1%), and prostate cancer (77.5% vs 99.3%), and this "probably represents differences in the timeliness of diagnosis," they comment. That in turn stems from the more intensive screening for cancer carried out in the United States, where a reported 70% of women aged 50 to 70 years have undergone a mammogram in the past 2 years, one-third of people have had sigmoidoscopy or colonoscopy in the past 5 years, and more than 80% of men aged 65 years or more have had a prostate-specific antigen (PSA) test. In fact, it is this PSA testing that probably accounts for the very high survival from prostate cancer seen in the United States, the authors comment.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/561737
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The problem is that too many Americans cannot afford it, or even a reasonable facsimile thereof.
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That is your opinion.



I'm the employer paying close to $15 a month in health insurance premiums for my employees to be able to afford to go to the doctor.
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$15 a month? That's it? That's pretty darn cheap, so what's the problem?


No. Have you?
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Of course I have read it. What's telling is that you haven't and yet you sit there throwing out quotes and numbers from a report that you have never read, analyzed, or verified.

I should not have to point out all of the facts I did to someone as opinionated on this subject as you appear to be. You should have done your own research before just blindly accepting the statistics from some report you've heard others talk about.
 
Triad said:
That is impossible...you post.

I have no doubt whatsoever you where bashing Bush for doing anything akin to what you are now patting Obama on the butt for.
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Wanna give a single example?
 
WillRockwell said:
This is not true, just mouthing of the excuses the pharmaceutical industry is spinning so they won't lose market share.
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No, it is very much the truth. It's easily foreseeable to anyone with a knowledge of economics and historical economic trends of comparative industries. This is precisely why the American Medical Association opposes it.

Sure, private insurers will lose business, that is the whole freaking point.
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Really? Bankrupt an entire industry and putting hundreds of thousands of people out of work is the whole point?

Since when is the continued wealth of private medical insurers more important than affordable health care?
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Note that you say "affordable" health care. That's always the argument from you people who seek to destroy our health care system. You never talk about the quality of that health care and how that will suffer in order to make it "affordable." It will become "affordable" by rationing care, long waiting lists, and denying treatments that the government bureaucrats deem to expensive or draining on the system. This is what happens in nations with socialist health care every day.

And "the continued wealth of private medical insurers", as you so notably phrase it, thus citing a class warfare jealousy argument and not a medical one, is quite important to me because that private insurance is the reason I have a better quality of health care than most other people in the world.

Government health care for everyone isn't about taking those people with less access to health care or a lack of insurance and bringing them up to the quality of care the rest of us receive today. It's about taking the rest of the us with a high quality of care and dragging that quality down to make it "affordable" so everyone can have the same miserable low quality health care, just like in Britain and Canada etc.
 
Shep Dawg said:
GREEN BAY, Wis. - Surrounded by supportive citizens in the heartland, President Barack Obama challenged lawmakers back in Washington who criticize his proposed health care overhaul. "What's the alternative?" he said Thursday.
What is the alternative?
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Eliminate third-party payment and make everyone pay for everything themselves.

Free market competition will lower prices and improve quality.
 
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Gibberish said:
Government may help in making it affordable at the clinic or hospital but the cost is way to high at the government level, IMHO.

Health care will be fixed by allowing it to be privatized and helping remove the outrageous inflation imposed by huge insurance companies with the goal to strong arm anyone not wanting to invest in insurance.
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Wrong; healthcare will get fixed by allowing MORE competition and removing idiotic regulations that make healthcare EXPENSIVE. One example would be California's requirement of forcing hospitals to provide care to illegal aliens.

:2wave:
 
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