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Thread: AMA opposes Obama's Health Care plans...

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    Re: AMA opposes Obama's Health Care plans...

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Neither are patients.

    The only "debate" should be between doctor and patient.

    Everybody else has no stake in the matter and needs to stay the hell out of it.

    Government needs to stay out.

    Insurance needs to get out.

    Everybody.
    It is illogical and unreasonable to argue that Insurance should get out of this debate.

    Insurance allows people to reduce the potential of disasterous costs by taking risk and spreading it to all it's buyers/members and a much lower cost than it would be for individuals to "self insure." It would be crazy to presume that getting rid of insurance is a GOOD idea.


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    Re: AMA opposes Obama's Health Care plans...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    Correct me if I am wrong but didn't the AMA undermine Truman's plans to reform health care, and then Kennedy's plans to reform health care, and then Clinton's plan to reform health care?
    I think it is bizarre to argue that anything the Government does as being "reform." It would be more accurate to call it "cost increasing interference."

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    Re: AMA opposes Obama's Health Care plans...

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    It is illogical and unreasonable to argue that Insurance should get out of this debate.

    Insurance allows people to reduce the potential of disasterous costs by taking risk and spreading it to all it's buyers/members and a much lower cost than it would be for individuals to "self insure." It would be crazy to presume that getting rid of insurance is a GOOD idea.

    Well, there are some inherent inefficiencies in insurance that need to be dealt with. For example, if you had food insurance, would you buy ground beef or filet mignon? You'd by the filet every time. Of course, if you were buying yourself, you might pick the ground beef since it's cheaper and you can't afford filet every time. So we can see how insurance can throw off the price system.

    The solution to me seems to be deductibles and co-pays. This way we feel the price of what we are getting it and are covered in case of an emergency.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: AMA opposes Obama's Health Care plans...

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    Obama isn't an economist either; just look at his idiotic policies to date.

    What the AMA knows is that this will indeed lead to Government controlled healthcare and destroy the best medical care systems in the world.
    What a joke. If I am driven to an emergency room, they won't even treat me unless I can prove I can pay for it. If they do treat me, it will cost a fortune if I have to stay overnight, thousands if I walk out after treatment. How does that even come close to being "the best medical care systems in the world"?

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    Re: AMA opposes Obama's Health Care plans...

    Quote Originally Posted by WillRockwell View Post
    What a joke. If I am driven to an emergency room, they won't even treat me unless I can prove I can pay for it. If they do treat me, it will cost a fortune if I have to stay overnight, thousands if I walk out after treatment. How does that even come close to being "the best medical care systems in the world"?
    Why have you earned that? Why do you deserve to have someone come to help you and devote time and resources? What does the doctor and the hospital owe to you?

    It seems like you're arguing that you're entitled to medical care. Well why?

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: AMA opposes Obama's Health Care plans...

    Quote Originally Posted by WillRockwell View Post
    What a joke. If I am driven to an emergency room, they won't even treat me unless I can prove I can pay for it.
    This is a lie. An ER has to treat you, by law.

    If they do treat me, it will cost a fortune if I have to stay overnight, thousands if I walk out after treatment.
    So?
    You expect quality goods and expert services for free?

    How does that even come close to being "the best medical care systems in the world"?
    How does having to pay for the goods and services you receive preclude this from being the best health care system in the world?

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    Re: AMA opposes Obama's Health Care plans...

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    You mean that figure of 46 million who are uninsured? Time for some fun facts:
    1. 9.7 million are not Americans.
    2. 16 million make more than $50,000.
    3. 14 million are eligible for government programs.

    This leaves only 8 million uninsured, and be sure, these are not CHRONICALLY uninsured. When you look at the data, the people at the bottom rung of society change completely about every 5 years.
    Phattonez,

    That 16 million may be "free riding," 14 million may be uninformed about eligibility does not mean that they are not uninsured. The reasons for their lacking insurance may differ, but they are uninsured. That lack of insurance imposes an economic cost on society.

    And maybe technology is improving in the medical sector more than other industries. Compare the cost of a normal Hepatitis B vaccine. See how that price has changed over the years. I'm sure you'll have fun with that.
    There are a wide range of reasons health costs have been rising as fast as they have. Some are beneficial. Some are not. For example, if one sorts through the Bureau of Labor Statistics' productivity data, one finds no information concerning the health care industry at large or institutions such as health care. Productivity data is not kept for that industry. That leaves a large information gap: are costs largely being driven by beneficial developments or a lack of productivity vis-a-vis the rest of the economy.

    When government runs it is the same thing. Since businesses and people will pay for it, and people are subject to economic fluctuations, the medical industry will still be subject to business cycles just like the rest of the economy. I know that you're not necessarily for government takeover, but nothing will avoid this problem. If there's a business cycle, medicine will necessarily feel it.
    I'm not in any way advocating government-run health insurance. I am not suggesting that private sector/consumer-driven approaches cannot address those problems.

    Private sector solutions could readily be designed to address the procyclicality issue. One example might include a supplemental insurance product that would make it possible for a person to maintain his/her existing coverage for a period of unemployment were he/she to have depended on his/her employer for coverage. That's just one example. Various researchers e.g., Harvard Business School professor Regina Herzlinger is one such person.

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    Re: AMA opposes Obama's Health Care plans...

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Why have you earned that? Why do you deserve to have someone come to help you and devote time and resources? What does the doctor and the hospital owe to you?

    It seems like you're arguing that you're entitled to medical care. Well why?
    The countries with the "best medical care" offer if for free. It is considered a right, the same as fire and police protection. Thank you for proving my point.

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    Re: AMA opposes Obama's Health Care plans...

    Quote Originally Posted by WillRockwell View Post
    The countries with the "best medical care" offer if for free. It is considered a right, the same as fire and police protection. Thank you for proving my point.
    You proved nothing. I asked you a question. Why do you feel that you deserve medical treatment? In other words, why do you feel that you can tell the doctor what can do, to basically enslave him? Why do you deserve his services?

    Other countries doing it proves nothing. Other countries used to have official religions and persecuted people of other religions. Does that mean that we should have done it? So don't try those logical fallacies on me again.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: AMA opposes Obama's Health Care plans...

    Quote Originally Posted by WillRockwell View Post
    The countries with the "best medical care" offer if for free. It is considered a right, the same as fire and police protection. Thank you for proving my point.
    News:
    If you get something because the government forces someone else to pay for it, it isn't a right -- its a privilege, and its provided to you by others at the point of a gun.

    And so, the idea that it is "free" defies all reason.
    Last edited by Goobieman; 06-12-09 at 01:53 PM.

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