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Thread: AMA opposes Obama's Health Care plans...

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    Re: AMA opposes Obama's Health Care plans...

    This scares the bejeezus out of me. This is the thing that Obama wants most, and it is the one thing that will be impossible to undo later on. Once you've got it, you're stuck with it. Just ask the Canadians and British.

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    Re: AMA opposes Obama's Health Care plans...

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    This scares the bejeezus out of me. This is the thing that Obama wants most, and it is the one thing that will be impossible to undo later on. Once you've got it, you're stuck with it. Just ask the Canadians and British.
    Yep, once this happens the Age of American Socialism will be in full swing and the idea of this being a free country will be a thing of the past. Freedom loving individuals will have lost the war.
    Last edited by Don't Tase Me Bro; 06-11-09 at 03:53 PM. Reason: Spelling

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    Re: AMA opposes Obama's Health Care plans...

    "We don't want to restrict peoples access to healthcare"--something along those lines..you've all heard or read it now a bazillion times. Its the Obama canned line.

    He endorses and supports a board along the lines of 'Daschles's HealthCare Board'....which is basically politicians deciding what procedures are worth doing and what are not.

    Oh but don't worry...they claim they won't restrict care..then wtf is the purpose of he board.

    You will be able to choose your doctor..as long as they are on our list.
    You will be allowed to choose your insurance provider..as long as we agree with it.

    Anyone who isn't comatose can smell the crap Obama is peddling under a shroud of half truths and BS.

    Luckily most of the Democrats in Congress are not the lunatic Far Left Pelosi/Obama types they are moderate to conservative Democrats...Obama will have a hell of a time getting them to apply socialism to the USA when their constituents will hang them for it.

    ObamaCare hopefully will die like HillaryCare.

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    Re: AMA opposes Obama's Health Care plans...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheHat View Post
    BINGO!

    Name the only insurance that covers anything and everything?

    Health insurance. Insurance is there for catastrophic incidents, not routine stuff, except for health insurance that is.

    When was the last time you claimed an oil change on car insurance?
    When was the last time you claimed an AC filter on homeowners insurance?

    Routine stuff that dont need 2 other groups paying for them should not be insured by either of the 2 groups.

    We just had a clinic open up here in town that is not taking insurance. It has set prices on all procedures. It was started by a group of doctors who got fed up with Medicare and Medicaid not paying up (same government that now wants to include everybody on these programs with ObamaCare) and having to deal with intermediate groups instead of just the doctor patient relationship. You can go there for all the routine tests, procedures, shots, etc, etc. They can refer you to a hospital for major medical care, but everything else is paid out of pocket.
    I can agree with cutting out routine "maintenance" medical procedures, like physicals, eye exams, dental exams, etc on principle.
    But it gets a bit more difficult when you start getting into just what is a "catastrophic" medical event, and what is not. Who is going to make that determination? If its the private market, then in order to compete and offer a better product, they will eventually reach the point where we are today. And do you trust the government to make a determination as to what is or is not a catastrophic medical event?
    "Loyalty only matters when there's a hundred reasons not to be-" Gen. Mattis

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    Re: AMA opposes Obama's Health Care plans...

    Correct me if I am wrong but didn't the AMA undermine Truman's plans to reform health care, and then Kennedy's plans to reform health care, and then Clinton's plan to reform health care?

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    Re: AMA opposes Obama's Health Care plans...

    Quote Originally Posted by WI Crippler View Post
    I can agree with cutting out routine "maintenance" medical procedures, like physicals, eye exams, dental exams, etc on principle.
    But it gets a bit more difficult when you start getting into just what is a "catastrophic" medical event, and what is not. Who is going to make that determination? If its the private market, then in order to compete and offer a better product, they will eventually reach the point where we are today. And do you trust the government to make a determination as to what is or is not a catastrophic medical event?
    I suspect that if you structured it more like car insurance or homeowners insurance (or any type of liability insurance), your concern could be addressed better.

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    Re: AMA opposes Obama's Health Care plans...

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    I suspect that if you structured it more like car insurance or homeowners insurance (or any type of liability insurance), your concern could be addressed better.
    Well for one, you have to start with the states. State legislatures write insurance laws. Forget going after the companies. You affect the change at the state level. All this demonization of the private market is just a waste of time and energy. The laws written regarding insurance don't happen at the company level. You'd have to relax whatever health insurance related laws there are at the state level, to allow the market to create a program of this nature.
    Besides catastrophic only health insurance is not that expensive anyway. People just don't want it. People are demanding a product that is all inclusive, and then bitching about the price of it. So all this pissing on about the market being the problem is really a bunch of hot air(not to say there aren't problems, but its not the core problem). They are trying to deliver supply, for the demand. The demand is just ludicrous, and the market follows. Any other market, and nobody has a problem with paying more. I want to go to an all inclusive resort, I reasonably expect to pay more than for a roach motel. I want a car fully loaded, I expect I would pay more than I would for a car with no frills. People are dumb, and want everything covered, and are pissing about the price when they should rather be looking at the value of what they are purchasing. I remember reading on Obama's campaign site, that he favored removing insurance limits on health insurance policies. In effect, forcing the insurance companies to give you unlimited coverage. Talk about driving up costs...
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    Re: AMA opposes Obama's Health Care plans...

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Do away with health insurance. That is the beast that drives up costs; kill that beast and costs come crashing back down to earth.
    I agree with this, get rid of private insurance.

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    The only rational economic structure is one where the consumer of healthcare (i.e., the patient), is 100% burdened with the the costs of his/her own care. The idea of "sharing risk" sounds all cute and warm and fuzzy and fully of compassion and preserving of life and so on, but it is bad economics and has produced artificial and irrational price inflation in healthcare.
    I disagree with this. The problem is health care is a product for which there is little demand until it is too late. If people paid for their own care, many maybe even most, would not go routinuely and thus allow many diseases to escalate treatment costs exponentially, often beyond what even the wealthy would have the ability to afford, much less anyone else.

    Since almost every other industrialized country in the world has UHC, I can not see how anyone could argue that such a policy might shackle the US with an economic disadvantage, unless one is assuming the US is relatively less productive than the rest of the world to begin with and needs some "cheat" (such as leaving a percentage of its population uninsured), to compete.

    If one hypothetically removed all private insurance, windfall profit-savings would not be passed on to consumers. It would be pocketed. It seems irrational to expect the medical industry to altruistically hand over savings to consumers, even if brow beaten publicly about it. Money is money.

    The only way to drive down costs is to force private doctors to compete against a public system which is mandated to minimize costs by streamlining care to the standard of care, (as opposed to private boutiques which love to itemize a lot of other garbage and are procedure happy), and bargaining down vendors with its immense economy of scale. Other countries do it with great relative economic success, why not here?

    Often the healthcare debate is given the analogy of the US Post office vs. Fed Ex, usually as a "proof" of the superiority of the private model. However, the mission of the USPS is much broader than that of Fed Ex. Fed Ex is a niche service by comparison. And frankly, as a consumer, whenever I have used Fed Ex, it has been much more expensive than the USPS. To me, that is not evidence of economic efficiency. Although Fed Ex may provide some benefit for some customers, they complement the USPS rather than replace it. And if I had to choose, I would rather stick with the USPS than Fed Ex. Together, however, they each fill different yet overlapping needs and provide a competitive environment that hones each of its strengths for the consumer, and a similar dynamic could probably work in the health care sector as well.

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    Re: AMA opposes Obama's Health Care plans...

    Quote Originally Posted by metreon View Post
    I disagree with this. The problem is health care is a product for which there is little demand until it is too late. If people paid for their own care, many maybe even most, would not go routinuely and thus allow many diseases to escalate treatment costs exponentially, often beyond what even the wealthy would have the ability to afford, much less anyone else.
    You are assuming that incentives to the patient are identical with or without insurance. However, a very brief analysis demonstrates that this could never be the case.

    With health insurance, for any doctor's visit, hospital stay, medical procedure, or prescription, the patient pays either a small portion of the price directly out of pocket or pays nothing out of pocket. Depending on the source of their insurance benefits, they may not even pay for the insurance premiums out of pocket, instead having them via their employer. Thus, it is impossible for the patient to ever know and accurately assess the price of healthcare and its impact on his or her finances. When the pricing does intrude on the patient's perception of healthcare consumption, it does so as the presentation that healthcare costs are so great as to be beyond the patient's capacity to pay.

    The end result is the patient does not consider healthcare costs in managing their finances or their lives.

    Without health insurance, the patient would be compelled to pay directly any and all healthcare costs. They would have, by virtue of the checks they write to doctors, perfect information about the impact of healthcare costs on their finances. It is impossible for a patient not to include healthcare costs in managing their finances or their lives.

    That preventative care is less costly should be obvious. With direct payment of healthcare costs by the patient, the patient is presented with all pertinent pricing information to rationally decide how much inconvenience from preventative care is worth the cost savings of preventative care, and will seek preventative care to that extent.

    How can we be certain of this? Easily--look at automobiles. Most car owners get their oil changed semi-regularly; they are not told to do this, but the cost savings from proper preventative care is a powerful incentive, and even when people are imperfect in maintaining their vehicles, overall they are willing to trade the inconveniences of preventative care for the cost savings of preventative care. Similarly, when one rents a vehicle, one does not worry about the oil, or the transmission fluid; there is no incentive to do so, as one does not directly bear the costs of vehicle maintenance in that circumstance.

    Change the payment model from third party payor (insurance company) to direct payment by the patient and the incentives have to change. As incentives change, the attractiveness of preventative care will change.

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    Re: AMA opposes Obama's Health Care plans...

    There's a point that everyone's missing. Read between the lines, and you'll get it. I work in the health care industry as a provider and I can tell you what the AMA's position is really about...what it's always about: MONEY. A public health care plan, to work effectively, will, undoubtedly necessitate that physicians start charging less for procedures. The doctors of the AMA don't want their salaries cut. I'm not saying that this is good or bad, but let's call it what it is. The AMA is not interested in you or me...if they were, as don said, they would have proposed an alternative. The AMA is interested in the AMA.
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