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Thread: AMA opposes Obama's Health Care plans...

  1. #11
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    Re: AMA opposes Obama's Health Care plans...

    Very interesting - this may change my opinion a bit. Does anybody have link to the full AMA document? It isn't on their site and I'd like to read the entire thing

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    IMO, any health care reform legislation should be careful not to undermine private sector health care coverage while seeking to address the very real shortcomings in the health system at large i.e., incidence of uninsured persons, costs that have been rising at a multiple of inflation and economic growth for a prolonged period of time, etc. In addition, it should not impose new burdens that could adversely impact the cost structures of businesses, making U.S. companies less competitive vis-a-vis their international rivals or raising the effective cost of employment so as to create a higher level of structural unemployment.

    With respect to the AMA's position, the White House should issue a challenge to the AMA to offer its own plan that would:

    1. Dramatically reduce the incidence of uninsured persons, with benchmarks for the near-term.

    2. Bring about cost containment so that health costs do not rise at a multiple of inflation and economic growth. In the long-run, those rising health costs are not sustainable, and the sooner the issue is addressed, the easier the transition will be.

    If the AMA puts forth a plan, that plan should be given serious consideration in the mix of overall health care reform options that might be available at the time. If, however, the AMA does not furnish such a plan that credibly addresses the two biggest problems (coverage gaps and costs) with the U.S. health care system, then it will be clear that the AMA is merely trying to defend the status quo.

    Hopefully, the AMA would provide a credible alternative, as the more options that are available, the greater the chance that a beneficial approach to health care reform can be pursued.
    Challenging an opponent to come up with a better plan rather than addressing the opponent's arguments against your plan is shoddy debating. Whether or not the AMA has a fully-fledged plan to reform US health care in their back pocket, their criticisms of Obama's plan stand on their own merit

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    Re: AMA opposes Obama's Health Care plans...

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    Doctors are not economists. But we shall note their objection and continue on with the debate.
    Yeah! And most politicians are neither economists or medical experts! The so-called experts that they employ in their cabinets, the consultants the hire, the lobbyists who pay to guide them in their policies are the ones who have put us in our present situation - inflated medical costs and unprecedented US debt. Let's not listen to a bunch of doctors about medicine!
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    Re: AMA opposes Obama's Health Care plans...

    Quote Originally Posted by WI Crippler View Post
    My concern also is the overall long range average. With obesity, heart disease, diabetes etc... on the rise, despite economic fluctuations up or down, I think its a difficult idea, to try and match health cost concerns, to economic factors.
    I fully understand such concerns, WI Crippler. The issue is that health services need to be paid for. The funds to make such payments are generated by economic activity. Economic activity provides incomes (individuals and businesses) and tax revenue that finance health expenditures.

    If health costs rise persistently faster than the economy grows, there will be a scarcity of funds at some point. The situation would be analogous to an asset bubble, except in this case it would be an expenditures bubble. At some point, the costs would become so great that immediate hard rationing would occur out of necessity, as defaults on payments would increase rapidly, government would cap its expenditures due to competing priorities/inability to borrow unlimited sums of money, etc. That situation would be disruptive, both economically and with respect to those whose health needs would not be accommodated.

    It is highly unlikely that foreigners would be willing to lend to the U.S. to finance those excess costs absent reforms that contain the growth of such costs. Otherwise, they would be concerned that they might never be repaid.

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    Re: AMA opposes Obama's Health Care plans...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kernel Sanders View Post
    Challenging an opponent to come up with a better plan rather than addressing the opponent's arguments against your plan is shoddy debating. Whether or not the AMA has a fully-fledged plan to reform US health care in their back pocket, their criticisms of Obama's plan stand on their own merit
    Kernel Sanders,

    Looking back, "challenge" might an inappropriate word. I should have worded things better. I believe encouraging opponents to bring their own ideas to the table with a focus on addressing the core problems confronting the present arrangement would facilitate a more informed discussion and probably lead to better policy choices in the end. That was my intent.

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    Re: AMA opposes Obama's Health Care plans...

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    Doctors are not economists. But we shall note their objection and continue on with the debate.
    Neither are patients.

    The only "debate" should be between doctor and patient.

    Everybody else has no stake in the matter and needs to stay the hell out of it.

    Government needs to stay out.

    Insurance needs to get out.

    Everybody.

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    Re: AMA opposes Obama's Health Care plans...

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    Doctors are not economists. But we shall note their objection and continue on with the debate.
    Nope, they are just the ones that actually know what the **ck is the going on with healthcare on a day to day basis. I love how easily you dismiss them.
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    Re: AMA opposes Obama's Health Care plans...

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    I fully understand such concerns, WI Crippler. The issue is that health services need to be paid for. The funds to make such payments are generated by economic activity. Economic activity provides incomes (individuals and businesses) and tax revenue that finance health expenditures.

    If health costs rise persistently faster than the economy grows, there will be a scarcity of funds at some point. The situation would be analogous to an asset bubble, except in this case it would be an expenditures bubble. At some point, the costs would become so great that immediate hard rationing would occur out of necessity, as defaults on payments would increase rapidly, government would cap its expenditures due to competing priorities/inability to borrow unlimited sums of money, etc. That situation would be disruptive, both economically and with respect to those whose health needs would not be accommodated.

    It is highly unlikely that foreigners would be willing to lend to the U.S. to finance those excess costs absent reforms that contain the growth of such costs. Otherwise, they would be concerned that they might never be repaid.
    I see this as an inevitable scenario, no matter which path one supports, private market insurance or UHC. Until people take such measures to excercise personal responsibility for their own health, and not rely on the health care system to prop up their unhealthy lifestyles, the costs will continue to climb, no matter who is footing the bill.
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    Re: AMA opposes Obama's Health Care plans...

    Quote Originally Posted by WI Crippler View Post
    I see this as an inevitable scenario, no matter which path one supports, private market insurance or UHC. Until people take such measures to excercise personal responsibility for their own health, and not rely on the health care system to prop up their unhealthy lifestyles, the costs will continue to climb, no matter who is footing the bill.
    Why should people take such responsibility? Where in the current delivery mode of healthcare does it make sense to take such responsibility?

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    Re: AMA opposes Obama's Health Care plans...

    Unlike the AMA, the Physicians for Single Payer have done the research and have a plan.......

    Single-Payer Primer for the Press | Physicians for a National Health Program

    It might be useful to understand who actually funds and runs the AMA and read alternative voices to get a more complete picture of what medical providers think about this issue.

    Proposal of the Physicians’ Working Group for Single-Payer National Health Insurance
    The Physicians’ Proposal for National Health Insurance establishes the vision and principles of a single-payer health system for the United States. The document was composed by a distinguished group of physician leaders, and secured the endorsement of 8,000 physicians by the time of its publication in the August 13, 2003 JAMA.

    The text outlines the general structure of the single-payer plan: eligibility and coverage, physician and outpatient care payment, global budgeting of hospitals, the establishment of a national long-term care program, planned capital investment and single-payer financing.
    How Much Would a Single-Payer System Cost?
    The financial viability of a single-payer system has been analyzed time and again by researchers both from the U.S. government and independent consulting firms. Each time the conclusion is the same: single-payer saves enough on wasteful paperwork to provide high quality health coverage to all and contain future health spending. This paper catalogs the analyses of proposed single-payer systems at both the federal and state levels.
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    Re: AMA opposes Obama's Health Care plans...

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Why should people take such responsibility? Where in the current delivery mode of healthcare does it make sense to take such responsibility?
    Why should they, or why would they?
    "Loyalty only matters when there's a hundred reasons not to be-" Gen. Mattis

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