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Shooting reported at or near U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington.

Agent Ferris said:
First of all don't tell me to STFU you ignorant little reprobate:

"One [capitalism] is past history; the other, WESTERN SOCIALISM, represents the future of the West, and the end of JEWRY on Western soil." -- Von Brunn


FrontPage Magazine - Holocaust Museum Shooter: Christian-Hating Socialist
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you got to be kidding me. I heard that idiot Rush was trying to claim Von Brunn was a leftist--that's just idiotic. I can't believe the far right has gone that far from basic political theory not to know left from right.

von Brunn was a bigot. He was anti-everything. He can call himself a Golden God, that doesn't make it so. Von Brunn's racist rants were so far out of reality. I don't give a sh*t what he called himself.

Sure, the left needs to stop pointing fingers, but if the right thinks this guy voted for Obama, I have a bridge I want to sell them.

How can intelligent people buy this crap? How can a person who went to college hear Rush Limbaugh or any right-wing commentator say that von Brunn is leftist and NOT turn off the radio in disgust.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
I remember that debate. Aqua claimed that fascism was left wing extremism. I quoted the father of fascism, Mussolini (who aqua had quoted, also), making it clear that fascism was right wing extremism. After his usual insulting, aqua vacated the thread.
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Seriously, Captain.

I hate it when people try to flip things around. It's like newspeak from 1984.

Aqua: Words have meanings. If you don't know those meanings, do use the words.

Here, this will help.

European-political-spectrum.png
 
Agent Ferris said:
Can you provide that quote? Is it the fake quote? I have real quotes from FDR and Churchill about Mussolini. ;)
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It's from the "Doctrine of Fascism". There is some dispute whether this was written by Mussolini or ghost written by Giovanni Gentile, but even if it was, Mussolini signed off on it and agreed with the positions.

Here's the link: Mussolini  - THE DOCTRINE OF FASCISM
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
It's from the "Doctrine of Fascism". There is some dispute whether this was written by Mussolini or ghost written by Giovanni Gentile, but even if it was, Mussolini signed off on it and agreed with the positions.

Here's the link: Mussolini* - THE DOCTRINE OF FASCISM
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O.K. it wasn't the corporatism quote. The doctrine of fascism exists under the the extreme left/ultra right convergence or the extreme third way. Fascist regimes can not be properly labeled as either right or left, they are a statist enterprise under which classes are forced to cooperate by the state for the state. A government of the state, by the state, and for the state. And it is very much opposed to the individualism found in liberal democracies just as extreme leftism is.
 
Agent Ferris said:
O.K. it wasn't the corporatism quote. The doctrine of fascism exists under the the extreme left/ultra right convergence or the extreme third way. Fascist regimes can not be properly labeled as either right or left, they are a statist enterprise under which classes are forced to cooperate by the state for the state. A government of the state, by the state, and for the state. And it is very much opposed to the individualism found in liberal democracies just as extreme leftism is.
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No, the corporatism quote is a fallacy, I believe...or at least there is no sourcing for it. Regardless, it does not adhere to his position on corporatism, anyway.

Fascist regimes, as defined by Mussolini, reject liberalism and left wing ideology. Read the link for more information on this.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
No, the corporatism quote is a fallacy, I believe...or at least there is no sourcing for it. Regardless, it does not adhere to his position on corporatism, anyway.

Fascist regimes, as defined by Mussolini, reject liberalism and left wing ideology. Read the link for more information on this.
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No sir Mussolini was a comintern agent for quite a long time. He was in fact named Il Duce while a member of the Marxist party. What Mussolini did was combine the ultra right and the extreme left.
 
Agent Ferris said:
No sir Mussolini was a comintern agent for quite a long time. He was in fact named Il Duce while a member of the Marxist party. What Mussolini did was combine the ultra right and the extreme left.
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And Mussolini rejected his socialist roots and adopted a far more right wing, authoritarian philosophy. His collectivist views were extremely different than those you would find in communism or socialism which are more left wing philosophies. Though statist, fascism rules by power and authority; communism and socialism rule by cooperation. Far, far different philosophies. Mussolini rejected the left wing leanings of his younger days.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
And Mussolini rejected his socialist roots and adopted a far more right wing, authoritarian philosophy. His collectivist views were extremely different than those you would find in communism or socialism which are more left wing philosophies. Though statist, fascism rules by power and authority; communism and socialism rule by cooperation. Far, far different philosophies. Mussolini rejected the left wing leanings of his younger days.
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You're still thinking in a linear left/right political spectrum. How quaint. Rule by authority can be used to describe any communist country which has ever existed.
 
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Agent Ferris said:
You're still thinking in a linear left/right political spectrum. How quaint. Rule by authority can be used to describe any communist country which has ever existed.
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Except that is NOT true communism. That is more of a totalitarian state.

And you are thinking in theory, not in practicality.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
Though statist, fascism rules by power and authority; communism and socialism rule by cooperation. Far, far different philosophies.
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In theory, yes, but wasn't it Trotsky who argued that those not supportive of the Revolution needed to be coerced into supporting it?

What starts out as diametrically opposed philosophies in theory has a tendency to coalesce around a common set of means in reality.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
Except that is NOT true communism. That is more of a totalitarian state.
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Yes yes "the real communism" funny thing how they all come under a cult of personality in practice.

And you are thinking in theory, not in practicality.
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Exact opposite actually.
 
celticlord said:
In theory, yes, but wasn't it Trotsky who argued that those not supportive of the Revolution needed to be coerced into supporting it?

What starts out as diametrically opposed philosophies in theory has a tendency to coalesce around a common set of means in reality.
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Which is why communism, in theory, is leftist, but in practice, it becomes totalitarian and extreme right wing.

As far as I have seen, there has been no communist society on a wide scale. Human psychology will not allow it to happen, which is why communism and socialism, though great in theory, never will occur in practice.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
Which is why communism, in theory, is leftist, but in practice, it becomes totalitarian and extreme right wing.

As far as I have seen, there has been no communist society on a wide scale. Human psychology will not allow it to happen, which is why communism and socialism, though great in theory, never will occur in practice.
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As far as I have seen Marxism is extreme left, and because of that there is a convergence with the ultra right.
 
Agent Ferris said:
Yes yes "the real communism" funny thing how they all come under a cult of personality in practice.
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Pure communism, as a societal practice, cannot exist because of human psychology. Any collectivist philosophy that is attempted to be put into practice on a wide scale will devolve into extreme right wing authoritarianism.



Exact opposite actually.
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Nope. Not at all.
 
Agent Ferris said:
As far as I have seen Marxism is extreme left, and because of that there is a convergence with the ultra right.
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OK, if this is your position, please show how.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
Pure communism, as a societal practice, cannot exist because of human psychology. Any collectivist philosophy that is attempted to be put into practice on a wide scale will devolve into extreme right wing authoritarianism.
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I think I've already said that hence "cult of personality", but it is not just the end result which is the question, so too, is the collectivist revolution and the violence and suffering which it brings. It's been happening since Robespierre. Lenin was an avid admirer of Robespierre.

Nope. Not at all.
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No, exactly.
 
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CaptainCourtesy said:
Pure communism, as a societal practice, cannot exist because of human psychology. Any collectivist philosophy that is attempted to be put into practice on a wide scale will devolve into extreme right wing authoritarianism.
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CaptainCourtesy said:
OK, if this is your position, please show how.
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Not to quibble too much, Cap'n, but haven't you already made the demonstration?
 
Hatuey said:
Instead of talking about the buses you fix for a living why don't you look up which side of the ideological scale Nazism was on. We've already had this debate with Aquapub. And the outcome? Nazism is squarely on the right wing.
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I think you need to put the bong down son.


It was a dictatorship that reigned in both sides. I'd hate for you not to qualify for a bus driver position because your mouth betrays your intellect. :2wave:
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
I remember that debate. Aqua claimed that fascism was left wing extremism. I quoted the father of fascism, Mussolini (who aqua had quoted, also), making it clear that fascism was right wing extremism. After his usual insulting, aqua vacated the thread.
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See, I think that is a misnomer as well. It is a hybrid of left and right, it was, a dictatorship. It did not fill either mold.


That said, it started as a left wing movement, to unite the workers under socialism. They used big government programs to propell Germany out of thier depression. It was anti-capitalist, central controlling.


To me these are left wing Ideals. SOcially, they were right wing, but far more left wing, and statist, economically.



That said. I see you had no problem with Hautey's insulting ways, so I responded in kind. Thank you for your understanding. * :cool::2razz::2razz:






* please note "Razz" smilieys..... ;)
 
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It is a mistake to attempt to label all political views on a scale that only ranges from left to right on American terms. There are plenty of extremist views that are off the charts compared to American politics and totally unrelated to domestic ideology.
 
Hatuey said:
Instead of talking about the buses you fix for a living why don't you look up which side of the ideological scale Nazism was on. We've already had this debate with Aquapub. And the outcome? Nazism is squarely on the right wing.
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One one side of the ideological scale is libertarianism. On the other side are all the collectivist notions, such as socialism, communism, thisism and thatism and theotherisms.

Does it matter if the boot crushing your neck is stepping on you because the wearer is hired by the Dictator for Life enjoying his new palace or by the Dictator for Life by Blessed Virtue of the Proletariat enjoying his new palace?
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
One one side of the ideological scale is libertarianism. On the other side are all the collectivist notions, such as socialism, communism, thisism and thatism and theotherisms.
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Not exactly.

The spectrum has an x and y axis.

European-political-spectrum.png
 
hazlnut said:
Not exactly.
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Actually, yes, exactly.

Amber is the only real city, which casts infinite shadows of itself until all shadows merge into unrelenting Chaos.

Libertarianism is the only real philosophy of freedom, all other philosophies reflect a shadow of that ideal and incorporate some inherent element of the chaos of man's bestial nature.

Heck, rotate your little picture by ninety degress (in the plane of the image) and what do you have?

You have the word "libertarian" on one side, and everything else is arrayed on the other side. Just what I said. (PS, the better charts are shown as a "diamond", with libertarianism at the top, not that it invalidates what I said or the imagery I employed.)
 
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UPDATE: Shooting reported at or near U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington.

Child porn found on von Brunn's PC

Child pornography was found on a computer belonging to the white supremacist charged with shooting and killing a security guard at the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum, the FBI said in court documents.

Agents found the material on a desktop computer seized from the Annapolis apartment, where 88-year-old James W. von Brunn lived with his son and his son's fiancee, FBI Special Agent Ronald Farnsworth said in an affidavit filed Wednesday in support of a search warrant.

Investigators searched the home June 11, taking more than 30 items, including ammunition, computers, thumb drives, CDs, memory cards, cell phones and videos.
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Anybody surprised by this?
 
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